Jaime Bee

It's funny hearing Dawson narrate this.

-Alicia-

Idk who’s narrating it but I love the quote

Jaime Bee

Dawson from Dawson's Creek.

He is talking about him & Joey.

DJo were Soulmates & the show was supposed be all about their love story.

The premise changed when the creator left in some ways & then KW came back to write the series finale changed it to a Pacey/Joey endgame.

Majority of fans fell in love with PJo in fandom.

The writers had always planned a DJo endgame so they never got a real chance at even a relationship more than a few episodes.

The one time they did sleep together was a mess since Joey found he had a girlfriend that summer before they met up again.

Joss has actually in the nar. of Buffy made Spike Pacey.

I also read he loved how the triangle was resolved.

Buffy to Angel in Series Finale.

Buffy: Are you gonna come here & go all Dawson on me every time I have a boyfriend!

They made it like DJo were still soulmates but not in the romantic way they realized.

I love both DJo & PJo but the latter a little more.

I hated PJo before repeats though.


PJo are Spuffy without the vampires.

They remind me so much of them in AU fic.

-Alicia-

I’ve heard hat quote in many couple videos but never knew it was from Dawson’s creek

I never watched the show. I couldn’t get into it back in the day and I haven’t tried in my adult life.

I like the idea of someone still being your soul mate but realizing it wasn’t but in the romantic way. That makes a lot of sense. Especially for BA imo.

Jaime Bee

I think SpuffCan are soulmates but it goes beyond lovers.

Bangel aren't soulmates.

Nothing in Dawson's speech fits them in that vid.

Dawson: It doesn't matter who ends up with who b/c in some unearthly way it's always gonna be you & me.

Joey: Soulmates.

Dawson: What we have goes beyond friendship beyond lovers. It's forever.

Joey: Yes it is.

I love you, Dawson.

Dawson: I love you too, Joey.

Joey: You and me always.

Dawson: Always.




It's more interpretation that they realized what they had was friendship I guess b/c the next scene Pacey/Joey obviously living together watching his show that is based on their lives. Joey/Dawson end up together on the TV show.

PJo kiss. They call Dawson & he tells them he is going to get to work with Spielberg that has been his dream since the first episode.

-Alicia-

Sounds exactly like what Joss was doing, tbh.

Also, this has nothing to do with me shipping spuffy but everything to do with me seeing the story with how it was written, but I will never understand how Buffy kissing Angel when he returns in the finale makes sense. Maybe she was just freaked out and he’s familiar? It’s not realistic, though. Screams fan service to me but I digress. Whatever

I didn’t mean to get into that, sorry

straws

TBH, it does to me too.

I kind of read it as her going 'well this is THE big battle of all battles (the First), we might all die, I'm going to kiss this man who had such a big piece of my heart while I still breathe bc **** it, it might be my only chance.' And I know a lot of fans justify it as 'oh, he's Angel and when it comes to Buffy, it's always Angel.' and it is the last episode and the last BA scene ever and I can't fault BA fans for getting that really buttt...

IDK, something about it just doesn't gel with me that Buffy would build up and have the emotional not-relationship-relationship with Spike and then kiss someone else. And I know she was single and has a right to kiss whoever she wants and she's only 22 etc, and I hate when I see fans **** shame her for that moment. I ramble, it's hard to explain, it just doesn't quite feel in line with what we saw of s6-s7 Buffy up to that point.

~AnastasiaGrey~

Yeah I wasnt too happy with PJO at first getting the ending but I dealt with it lol

Jaime Bee

We both weren't.

My mom still isn't.

I always felt basically everything of Bangel in the series finale was fan service.

Angel asking Buffy if they even had a chance made no sense!

Angel left Buffy Season 3. He wanted her to have a normal life. He said they had no future.

Season 5 Spike watches DC.

Spike: Pacey, You blind idiot! Can't you see she doesn't love you?

Spike is projecting his own feelings & insecurities.

The PJo scene where he tells Joey she is off the hook & loving her is enough for him isn't on YT anymore.

I was able to find the channel that had everything of PJo up and the Season 6 playlist had the scene blocked for copyright.

I can only find it in French.

-Alicia-

That’s my issue with it, too. From a writing stand point, the way they built Spuffy up in season 7 and then to that just.... what? But I also understand it was the finale and they had to get something but stillllllllll.

And poor Spike had to see it just smh

I don’t blame Buffy at all, I blame the writers

straws

The timing of it was just so awkward.

They might have also done it deliberately to set up Spike's ATS arc. (Wasn't he already cast on ATS before S7 finished airing? I remember Joss being mad his death was spoiled in that he'd be back somehow. Spike seeing that was part of why he didn't go seek out Buffy when he was brought back. I don't think he believed her ILY either. There's no way he'd act the way he does in ATS s5 if he did.

-Alicia-

Yeah, I think I read Joss wanted us to be in pain over Spike’s death that whole Summer but the WB spoiled him coming to Angel so we all knew he’d be back I also read (idk how true) that the WB didn’t want to renew AtS unless they got James

Doesn’t make sense for Spike to stay THERE with that company after being resurrected but WHATEVER.

Jaime Bee

Yes WB spoiled it for Joss about Spike being alive.

My saved post with proof that Yes James coming to ATS was the stipulation for the show not to be cancelled!


I'm sure none of you will read all this.

Well some things are repeated.

Spike is given credit for the rise in ratings mostly.



No James/Spike No Angel Season 5!

ENISY - "The Write Environment" Joss Whedon Interview

Jeff: So it was an easy decision to bring him from Buffy over to Angel.

Joss: Um, the WB said they would not renew Angel unless we brought him over, so yeah it was a very easy decision.


Little-known sci-fi fact: How Whedon accidentally got Angel canceled | Blastr

Head writer David Fury "guarantees" that if Joss Whedon had not requested an early renewal, Angel would have been back for a Season 6.

It turns out The WB was prepping a lot of new shows (most of which crashed and burned) and didn’t want to lock in an older, more expensive series for another full season.


I knew the budget was involved somehow.

The ratings were actually up (which is rare for a series that far into its run).

Angel Season 4 lowest of the show.

Angel season 4 wasn't mention specifically but no doubt that it's true.

Why would they only bring it back if James joined?

I've read that other places over the years.

Angel was the second highest-rated program on the WB in Season 5.

Bolded part from Wiki


Bringing in Spike (James Marsters) paid off in spades.


Go James/Spike!


Well it seems like Joss must have not had everything planned out in advance like with Buffy.

That's part of why he wanted the early renewal. That also means he didn't get to plan out a real good series finale.


The WB cancelling Angel came back and bit them in the ass.


Mike Novic

It’s sad to think we could’ve had a whole ‘nother season had Whedon not pushed for an early decision, but you can’t blame the guy for trying to lock it in for planning purposes. In hindsight, we’re thinking The WB execs would also agree it was a dumb move.


Fans are still bitter about The WB canceling Angel in its prime almost a decade ago. But did you know it was (kinda) Joss Whedon’s fault to begin with?

With Buffy the Vampire Slayer officially wrapped, the full weight of the Buffy-verse shifted to Angel with fantastic effect in the series’ fifth season. The writers took a creative gamble by putting the gang in charge of Wolfram & Hart and bringing in Spike (James Marsters), and it paid off in spades.

The series was rolling with a great new direction, and the ratings were actually up (which is rare for a series that far into its run). So Whedon decided to push for an early renewal to allow his team to map out the end of the season and feed the story into season six.

Apparently that was a big mistake.

It turns out The WB was prepping a lot of new shows (most of which crashed and burned) and didn’t want to lock in an older, more expensive series for another full season. So, when forced to make a decision early, the network decided to pull the plug. But had Whedon not asked for the early renewal, producer David Fury believes the show was all but “guaranteed” a sixth season if the execs could’ve waited to make the call.


Angel (1999 TV series) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cancellation

On February 14, 2004, the WB Network announced that Angel would not be brought back for a sixth season. The one-paragraph statement indicated that the news, which had been reported by an Internet site the previous day, had been leaked well before the network intended to make its announcement.[28] Joss Whedon posted a message on a popular fan site, The Bronze: Beta, in which he expressed his dismay and surprise, saying he was "heartbroken"[29] and compared it to a "healthy guy falling dead from a heart attack."[30] Fan reaction was to organize letter-writing campaigns, online petitions, blood and food drives, advertisements in trade magazines and via mobile billboards, and attempts to lobby other networks (UPN was a favorite target, as it had already picked up Buffy). Outrage for the cancellation focused on Jordan Levin, WB's Head of Entertainment. It was the second highest-rated program on the WB.[31]

Head writer David Fury

The only reason that Angel didn't come back...it's a very simple thing. Because our ratings were up, because of our critical attention, Joss specifically asked Jordan Levin, who was the head of The WB at the time, to give us an early pick-up because every year they [would] wait so long to give Angel a pick-up [and] a lot of us [would] turn down jobs hoping that Angel will continue– he [Joss] didn't want that to happen. So, he was feeling very confident and he [Joss] just asked Jordan, "Like, make your decision now whether you're going to pick us up or not," and Jordan, sort of with his hands tied, with his back up against the wall, called him the next day and said, "Okay, we're cancelling you." Jordan's no longer there and The WB has since recognized...I believe Garth Ancier at The WB said that it was a big mistake to cancel Angel. There was a power play that happened that just didn't fall out the way they wanted it to. We wanted to get an early pick-up, we didn't. In fact we forced them [the WB] to make a decision, and with his hand forced he [Levin] made the decision to cancel us.

-Alicia-

I read all of it

I wonder if Angel had been renewed of spike would have stayed around? which is even more OOC after everything that happened in Buffy season 7

Also read that DB was miffed that SMG wasn’t available for the last episode of AtS even though he made time for Buffy’s finale

Which IMO, whatever, it makes sense. Buffy was in large about BUFFY. And while I do think that her kissing Angel makes no sense, it does make sense for Angel to come back as a send off Bc he was such a big part of who Buffy was and who she grew into be. While Ats was more about Angel and his thing and had nothing to do with Buffy so. Stay pressed I guess

Seems like a lot of BS surrounding the ending of Angel. Messy.

straws

Yep. Joss was mad that our suffering was minimized.

That's a common misconception in the fandom. SMG was available to shoot the ATS finale and was willing to. However, it was episode 5.12 Your Welcome that Joss wanted SMG back for. She could not make it because it was a poor time for her (iirc correctly, a death in the family) and so they asked CC instead (which I am happy about. Would Cordelia even have been given a proper sendoff otherwise?!?! Makes my blood boil...). Anyway, SMG offered to do the finale instead and Joss said no because he didn't want the finale episode of Angel to turn into a Buffy show and be all about Buffy. BC, lbr, had she appeared, even for 5 minutes, the power of our girl would've eclipsed the rest of the episode and would have probably been all that anyone would care about. So, in that way, I can see why JW said no and why he made his choice.

Re: DB. There is an old quote floating around where he does say something about being disappointed/shading her for not appearing on ATS, but whatever issue he had was obviously resolved bc they went back to being close shortly after.

IA, but on re-watch I was able to understand why he stayed a little more.

He was a ghost for the first 8 episodes and literally unable to leave the W&H grounds. When he tried he'd be teleported back.

His first instinct was to run to Buffy/ask for Buffy but once he realized his ghostly situation, he understandably felt it was better not to involve her. (Why tell her if his fate is unstable and he may only be back temporarily? Etc)

Anyway, I think his confidence was already shot when it came to her. I don't think he believed her ILY. He'd just seen her kiss Angel even after she finally let him all the way in and asked him to hold her in Touched--which in his mind, could be misconstrued as 'no matter how close to me you get, it'll still be Angel'--so his insecurity was already a thing. Take into account that he then was forced to be around Angel, Buffy's 'Great Love' for weeks as a ghost, and hear Angel tear him down and cut up his bond with Buffy (Ex: Spike: You don't know what we had. Angel: You never had her.) and factor in everything he's still feeling/dealing with re: his soul (he finally loved Buffy selflessly, he knew he was a "monster" and "unworthy of her") and I can sadly see how he'd arrive at the misguided conclusion that she'd be better off with him out of her life.

He also doesn't join W&H after he is re-bodied. He constantly tells the Fang Gang that they've joined the wrong side and can't fight the war from the belly of the beast. Lindsay (an Angel villain, since you mentioned you haven't seen ATS) is trying to **** with Angel by using Spike. He pretend to be "Doyle" and tells Spike that he is a champion and the new hero for the powers. He tells Spike that he has visions of people in trouble and has Spike go on missions to help the helpless, tricking Spike into thinking he has a higher purpose by staying in L.A.

Anyway, it hurts my heart so much to think about Buffy learning that Spike came back for a year and didn't tell her. He even almost died again in the Angel finale - and was willing to. Imagine he did and she found that out. That not only had he come back, but she'd lost her chance with him all over again.