First off, allow me to say that I love that this is leading to a discussion... very happy about that. Ok, now i'll address some of your points and answer some of your questions...

Okay, I don't fully disagree here. I think a lot of people are going off about Logan and Rory being IT... Or Marty being Rory's Luke... I was just trying to make a point that I think Logan should be in the picture long term... I think he'll open up entire worlds for her... I don't dislike Marty, I just don't think him and Rory should date. I agree, they do relate to each other well, and understand where the other is coming from, but I don't see why that needs to lead to a romantic relationship. Plus, since when do relationships have to be based solely on the past (i.e. what they've shared in the past)...? why can't they be built or develop on the idea/knowledge of what they can share together in the future? And just because Logan hasn't per se lived the same experiences as Rory, does not by any means lead to the conclusion that he can't understand her... from what I've seen, he's been able to read Rory pretty accurately.

I just think that's a bit unfair to Logan's character... to assume that he's this shallow being that lacks depth and insight. Frankly, i said this before and I'll say it again, i think he's severely underdeveloped as a character... but that doesn't mean that he's not worthy of development. Plus... him and Rory are starting out as friends... and although he's presented as somewhat flighty at the moment, there's no reason why he and Rory can't build the trust and the comfort that is necessary in a relationship once their bond deepens and they realize how they feel about each other. Frankly, we don't know where the writers are taking Logan's character... so all of this is a bit too speculative...


Agreed... simple as that. Allow me to say however, that I don't really think any of the characters on this show are as fully three-dimensional as everyone makes them... so I'm slightly frustrated with everyone being up at arms about Logan not giving enough as a character. This is just a television show, and as such, will never fully capture reality as it really is... ergo, none of the characters on that screen will ever be 100% real. If the writers/producers took enough time to actually properly develop and portray every aspect of every main character on screen, we'd all be exhausted by now... With that said, i think the aim of every show (or at least, every good show) is to undertake a level of plot development that will result in the characters achieving a three-dimensional personality. Now, Rory/Lorelai/Luke/Marty have been around longer, so we have a slightly better picture of what they are like. Logan's only been in 3 episodes... we still have time. Moreover, he has done more in 3 episodes to develop Rory's personality than any other male peer in her life thus far (Jess excluded).

Okay, but Luke/Lor had that initial attraction/flirtation... Marty and Rory did not... plus, Luke is his own person, he doesn't hang on Lor's every word, he calls her out on things all the time, he stands up to her, he motivates her... I can't say Marty's done anything along those lines for Rory... nor can I say that i see him doing it for her in the future.

Yes to Matt Czurchy's acting abilities... also yes to Wayne Wilcox' acting abilities... I don't think he's a bad actor. I think Alexis Bledel is a poor actress... very cardboard-like for quite a few seasons... I think she's improved greatly this season though, and I didn't really want to get into the discussion about acting abilities, hence the "moving on"... I do think that Alexis/Rory reacts better to Matt/Logan... and i do think her interactions with Wayne/Marty are a bit flatter... I really can't say who to credit for that... but when i first saw Logan interact with Rory i thought "phew! finally someone to breathe some fresh air into this show and Rory's character"... I def didn't think that when Marty was introduced... but that's just my opinion.


So Marty isn't perfect, and is willing to talk about it. Great... and yes, a display of depth... and you're right... it is a HUGE deal finding out that about your father, and Rory sort of gets the same realization... but you see, that's my point... that was it! He mentioned it twice, and Rory mentioned her realization once... in passing! I mean, come on... this is huge... and if two people share that kind of experience, wouldn't they want to talk about it to a larger, deeper degree? But no, Marty moves off from Rory to his own discovery about his father and Rory falls alseep... what is that? Why couldn't he ask her what she felt about it? Why couldn't he probe her a bit? Now granted, this could all be the writers/producers' fault, b/c they do seem to be skipping over some very interesting points/situations this season that IMO require further development... but I dunno. I kind of get the impression that if she had made that kind of statement/confession to Logan, he would've grilled her to death about her state of mind and emotional being...

I think that's most of what I wanted to say... until a rebuttal, of course.

Very much agreed.



I have to agree with you there, which is why I want them to pursue that relationship. That doesn't necessarily mean she'll like that world, though. It might just be an experience, who knows? But I would like her to have that chance to experience it.



Which is why I don't want them together right now. I'm not saying those things should lead up to a relationship, but most often do because of the connection forged between those two people.


Because every relationship Rory's ever had has been like that, I would like them to be close friends, and I mean really close friends (not like Jess/Rory close friends) before they date. Luke/Lorelai is based on the foundation that they have been friends for 8 years. They've really gotten to know one another and everything about them. I'm not saying they always have to be that way, just that I would like Rory to have an experience where she can date a friend, and maybe, gasp, REALLY be friends with them if they break up (not in the Dean/Rory post relationship "friends")



I agree with you that he can understand her, but I would like the writers to delve into this idea. Show a DIFFERENT side of Logan. Please. His character will get very boring if they keep what they're doing. He has no depth if the writers don't bother to add more depth to his character. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve the depth, I actually think he does, so I'm waiting for them to write that in. Like you said, he's extremely underdeveloped, so please, writers, develop him!



I'm just waiting for that to happen.



I wouldn't necessarily say he's done more than Marty. They each have developed her personality in different ways. He makes her adventurous, but Marty allows her to examine her past, her dad, and where she thinks she stands in this new Yale world. Remember, she first met Logan because she was defending Marty. She has loyalty there and I think the point of having Logan and Marty both in her life is to have her seesaw between her grandparent's style of life and her mother's. So I think simultaneously they are both developing her personality in different ways.


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I personally think they did when she first saw him naked, but that's just my personal opinion. The writers have just been sporadically putting Marty in, rather than giving him a progressive storyline over three consecutive episodes like Logan. He dropped off the radar, comes back, drops off again. So I think people forget that when they first met, Rory was really intrigued by Marty, and I remember the scene in the classroom. Plus, she's already introduced him to Lorelai ;) .



The possibility for this is there, we just haven't seen it. He hasn't found out about her and the LGB yet, he doesn't know about her affair with Dean, which I don't know if he would agree with considering the problems he's having with his "dad" and mom. So, just because the opportunity hasn't been given, doesn't mean it can't happen. All he knows of Rory is positive right now.



That's where we disagree. I think he will have her question herself about a lot of her actions, if they continue on the road to being good friends. We just haven't seen them tackle a serious issue yet, except their dads, which I know he isn't going to "stand up" to her for. I can see him getting upset at her hanging with Logan, but not possessive like Dean. Because all Marty knows of Logan and his friends is them belittling him and being rude to him (after all, Marty is a male, and they are not attracted to his other "assets"), so I can see him getting disappointed she's hanging with that crowd, but not necessarily yelling at her for hanging out with them. I can see him getting hurt by it, since he's been there all the time as her friend and this rich boy appears and sweeps her off her feet.





I actually think her subtle conversation with Wayne on the bed was probably her most well acted scene this season, but that's just my opinion simply because of the subject matter she was talking about and the way she reacted to what he was saying, but again, that's just my opinion.




I think it's unfair to tackle Marty for talking about his dad. I mean, friendship is about TWO people, not just about Rory, and I think he was trying to express that she's not the only person with family problems Edited to add: And I don't mean that as him belittling her problems, but rather relating to her as a friend, showing he's vulnerable too and he can understand how Dads are tough. He also didn't pressure her to divulge more information, he didn't "probe her" because if I think he had, she would have gotten upset. So I disagree with you here.

Maybe Logan would have pressured her to talk about it, but I don't necessarily think that's the best idea in a situation like that. "he would've grilled her to death about her state of mind and emotional being..." is extremely insensitive, especially since Logan and her aren't that close yet and spent one weekend at a LGB retreat. It would presumptuous and egotistical of Logan to pressure her to talk to him about something so incredibly personal. The reason she can talk to Marty about it is because he kind of knows where she's coming from. If Logan did that, I think Rory would have reacted with a "You don't even know me or my family or anything about me or where I come from" to a rich boy who sunk a yacht. In fact, if they had a scene where Logan would "probe" her I would definitely hate his character and never want a pairing between them. Ever.

Marty is looking very good this season. Friend or not, they are cute together, comfortable.

I do have one thing to say about the above. Marty is a great guy and will make a nice safe companion. Logan is a loose cannon....and life could be a roller coaster. So we all decide how we want to spend out lives....maybe Rory will have to weigh her options if it ever comes to that. Right now, bring on Logan.


Anyone else crack up when TJ said he had been in jail twice because of jealousy?? Luke probably hates that they have that in common. But it probably also made him think about how stupid that all was.

In fact it was brought up twice, the other time being from Sookie.

Okay, I'll agree with you on all of this... wholeheartedly.


I'll even give you this one (wow - i'm really giving in too much here, j/k). I definitely thing that Logan/Marty are there to parallel Rory's two worlds... I also think that those two worlds will be played against each other through these 2 characters, which should be interesting to watch :D

Yeah, i don't know what that's about... I def think it's a discredit to Marty's charater. I like him, and I like watching him on screen with Rory... I don't know why they're so all over the place with that.

Very true... which is why i think they should focus on just developing their friendship. This crush thing has come about too soon, frankly. IMO though, I just don't see Marty reacting too strongly/negatively to anything that comes from Rory... he just doesn't seem to be that type of guy... probably out of fear of upsetting/losing Rory. So I guess that is exactly where we disagree :D

I do think Marty will get hurt at Logan entering the picture though... but again, that will just serve as a sort of teaching experience for Rory and a further development/test of their friendship (overcoming that strain/awkwardness and so forth). As far as him being disappointed at Logan sweeping Rory away while he's been her friend all along... eh, Rory doesn't owe him anything... def. not her heart, so frankly his disappointment should be directed only at himself. One last point - I disagree on Logan being rude to him, or belittling him... Colin was rude, yes... but I didn't think there was anything wrong in Logan's approach.

Yes, that was possibly one of her better acted scenes this season... still doesn't make her a good actress though... but that's just MO ;)

Actually, now that i think about it, I agree with the above. I take it back, I don't think Logan would've grilled her to death, so to speak. He definitely didn't push her last week after Dean's breakup... he just "distracted" her... so I don't think he would've pushed it here either... and yes, I prob. would've disliked his character had he been pushy as well.

My two cents....

GREAT episode. LOVED all of the "loose ends" that were tied up from past seasons.

For the Rory/Chris talk...I think her vent was more out of frustration for the lack of role he has played in her life vs. supporting Luke/Lorelai.Don't get me wrong... I know that she does and she wants what is best for Lorelai,but if you take a few of her comments from both this rant and the one in 5.06....

"One thing. I ask ONE THING from you, EVER...."

"Hi,Gigi.You probably don't know who I am..."

"You'll screw this up!! You screw everything up!!!"

"Oh,so you thought it was ok as long as there was a chance I'D never find out..."

"So you knew her first,so what I say doesn't count?"

and many more,but those illustrate it. Deep down,Rory feels the classic antagonism from her father being absent in her life. I think seeing Gigi(and hearing about how Chris is trying to forge a relationship btwn her and his parents...something he didn't do for Rory) reinforces this.

I don't think Chris acted wrong....I think the way he handled his conversation with Rory was wrong. As someone said upthread,his statement of "I knew her longer than you" was childish....his point was valid but there were so many better ways to phrase it.Something like,"We'll always be connected b/c we'll always have you" would have worked SO much better.

Even if she's 20,Chris needs to reach out to her and find ways to acknowledge that yes,he has screwed up with her but that she is still his daughter,and he wants to have a father/daughter bond with her. So far,the plot is telling us that he's forgoing any relationship with Rory and "starting with a clean slate" with Gigi. By him demanding respect from her,he is not trying to create a bond there.

However, I do think that he WANTS to build something with her...his staying away from Lorelai was based entirely on that.I just think that he doesn't know how to go about approaching it.


About the "looks" btwn C&L...If you take into context the conversation preceding them, and Chris' line to Rory about how long they've known each other...I got a completely different(optimistic) outlook.

They've known each other since childhood and been faced with a situation that forced them to grow up fast...Lorelai's career dream has finally been realized.She is finally "grown up" to Chris. I think the look that they shared was based on that,a sense of awe that they are reaching different goals/phases of their lives that they have spent a long time dreaming/striving for. That's all.

Well said, ITA. This statement ,Chris conversation to Lorelai via phone and Lorelai's talk with Rory tell me that they have no romantic feelings for each other...they are moving past that...I think he is here to transition their relationship from that phase to the one of closure...yes,the parent bond will always be there,and they'll have that past connection...but their lives are taking separate paths and they'll see that they weren't meant to be together and that it is okay.

just a small nitpick, but i think it's rather funny that when rory walsk out on bickering paris and marty in her common room, she stands by a poster on the wall that says 'romantic paris'

lol...it made me laugh....

wow stacey, that's a pretty dang good post!! well thought out and i completely agree.. i think it was good for rory to finally let her dad have it. she (and Lor) have been let down by him more times than he's been there for them..

I just finished watching the episode and I have to say I don't get the same warm, fuzzy feeling that so many JJ's got from the final scene with Lorelai ignoring the Chris phonecall.

She seemed quite buzzed that he had called and although she didn't pick up the phone I thought I saw reluctance on her part - more like she wasn't picking up because of the guilt she was feeling about lying to Rory and not telling Luke sooner than she did rather than not picking up because she isn't keen to talk to him again.

AND

At the lunch I very much got the impression that Chris still wants Lorelai - when he leaned forward during their conversation about how she has finally done it - it was there, written all over his face.

I am a JJ through and through but I just have this nagging feeling that whatever exists between Lorelai and Chris is simmering and something will trigger it to start all over again....and I will hate ever minute of it.

I am soooooo desperate for Lorelai to just cut him loose but it would appear that the only way Amy and Co have of creating drama in Lorelai's relationships is to bring Chris back and give her brain fade....unless David Sutcliffe joins another show. Any takers??? One guy for hire (very cute, can act!) - so he doesn't completely bum my GG viewing out!

I'm a JJ but always have held a soft spot for Lorelai/Chris.

In that answering machine scene - first impression she gave was buzzed that he called, since he said he would call, etc. Then it came to reluctance / making a choice.

Does she pick up the phone which could unearth past history, etc or does she do what her daughter would like her to do?

In the end she made the choice to do what Rory would like her to do - and I think the real reason she did that was she didn't want to see a daughter disliking (not hating) / being uncomfortable both her parents at once.

I personally see Christopher's role in the season (and no spoilers here whatsoever) as being one of rebuilding his relationship with his daughter and I also see Luke's "I'm fine about the whole Christopher thing" coming back to bite him in the backside (and that would be more due to the fact Christopher has in the Girls lives, if he tries to rebuild his relationship with Rory) <g>

Nadine

the episode was good
luke and tj they were funny, i like new characters they keep the show fresh
luke and lorelai they seem to be getting stronger as a couple every episode
lorelai/chris i don't see the love or the conexion between this two not now, not ever
emily i'm tired of her
lorelai and sookie it was time to see that friendship again they are great together
rory i like the way she is acting around chris, he deserve that and more.
chris pointless and waste of air time.
rory/paris/marty good to.

Ah, I'm back. Busy day. Well it's nice to know that we both agree that Logan/Rory should get together. It's just a matter of how we see that running its course in the future.




This is essentially why I want Logan's character developed. I understand their symbolism, but I also wanted their characters developed outside of the contrivance of the balancing worlds, even though I enjoy and understand what they symbolize. I want Logan to prove me wrong that he's a rich boy who's had it made his whole life, I want to know more about him, especially his faults. I can't love a character without them, and I don't want them to be overbearing, but just...realistic (I know a word like that is hard to use in reference to a tv show) but he doesn't seem like he has any rough edges to him, like rough edges I love about Luke's character or Lorelai's or at this point, even Marty. Marty isn't conventionally as good looking as Logan, but to me he's more real of a character, and he's awkward, and just how I would suspect a guy like him to be at Yale. Logan seems like a character on a tv show. Marty seems like a person I might interact with, and yes, even though I am fully aware that it is a tv show, I love when GG makes quirky characters who I feel like I could know in real life and not overdue them, which they sometimes fall victim to with townies (Taylor anyone?). So for now, even though I want the L/R pairing for a short time and see what it can do for Rory, I really do hope they develop Logan's character. This is why I am leaning more towards the Marty camp for a longterm relationship because he seems more of a genuine character to me in terms of dimensions, moreso than Logan. Who knows? I might change my mind, and I want ASP to try and convince me to change my mind because I don't want a pointless couple that has plot contrivance written all over it. Not saying that's what L/R are, but they have the potential to be if they don't show me another side of Logan.





I actually think I read Wayne Wilcox had theatrical offers he took part in (a production in Chicago, for example), so the way I see it, even though I love the idea of Marty/Rory, that ASP should just decide now if they want to make him important or cut him lose. The production he did in Chicago is opening in New York, and its one of the lead roles, and I would hate for him to miss that chance simply because ASP can't decide whether she thinks Marty is a worthy prospect yet, or decides to put him in every five episodes.





Actually, I was just thinking that I would love Marty to continue being Rory's friend but for the crush to dwindle and for Rory to sense something is wrong, and is missing the attention. Maybe after Logan/Rory she realizes she does have feelings for Marty and he's already moved on and no longer interested, maybe even with a different girl (in a way that was different from Shane/Jess but a girl he legitimately cared for). I would like to see Rory deal with that competition, and how she would continue her friendship with him.



True, she doesn't owe him anything, but I think he would disappointed that she would forsake their friendship to hang around people who were so rude to him (i.e. Colin, who is in the same crowd as Logan), as if how they treated him didn't matter. I would really love to see their reactions when the LGB crew finds out about Rory's real past, all they know of her so far is that she has wealthy grandparents. They don't know about Stars Hollow, or her mom, and I really want to see their reactions to that. Will they accept it? And if they do, how come they can accept her and not Marty? She used to swipe the cards at the cafeteria, after all. Would they treat her like a servant then? What if she were a server in that cafeteria for work study/financial aid? I'm talking more of that crew (namely Colin) rather than Logan, as I see Logan wasn't as rude, but Marty associates him with that crowd and that's all he knows of Logan. I think its a huge cop out for them to be nice to Rory, despite her background (if they ever find about it) because she's pretty and a girl, but Marty who bartends for them is "so little." I think that will probably hurt Marty the most.

Exactly. I don't think either at this point have the right to "probe" her, but Marty was willing to listen when she did, as I'm sure Logan would (though I'm not sure she would feel comfortable telling Logan that, as in if she is attracted to him, she might not want him to see that vulnerability or have him know that her family, meaning Mom and Dad, aren't perfect and millionaires).

A comment on Emilys date. Well, first of all KB is wonderful and the closing scene was great. Of course it would have been better if Richard was waiting for her, but heres what I noticed on Emilys date. The were eating on the patio in November???Emily had her elbow on the table while they were eating???? Now when he was walking her back to the house was anyone else afraid that he might go in with her, because it looked that way to me at first. Also, when she got inside I got a feeling that she would cry for some reason. Someone on another forum pointed out a good point about the last scene. I have to agree with them. There thought was that Emily had actually enjoyed her date and she was not pretending. It wasn't until she closed that door that it hit her like a ton of bricks. She was alone, she was guilty, she was scared (of the concept of dating after so many years and losing her husband). All I have to say is they better reconcile and it better happen on camera!

I was over at Twop. Everyone is talking about the Chris and Lorelai vibes. Call me crazy, but I didn't see it that way. Lorelai is flirty with everyone. It's something about her personality. I like their chemistry, but I don't see it as her giving any "I want you" vibes. She is totally into Luke.

I really like Rory with a spine telling off Chris. She has been way too sugar coaty in the past. It's about time

I have to quote you cause you said everything I thought. Well put!

thanks Lor-baby