FireQueen

The idea was to introduce Bart as early as S3. They could have had a change of mind though...

Are you talking about the old series with John Wesley Shipp? I could be wrong but didn't that show last two seasons tops? I read an interview with JWS where he pointed out that one of the reasons why his show failed was the lack of an "Iris". That's his opinion though. In addition, Iris could still play an important role in Barry's life as his close friend as you already stated multiple times...

As for the New 52, the authors have stated that they always intended to use Barry/Patty as a stalling romance and eventually go back to B/I. And while it's true that the New 52 is far from being over WA is currently the central romance.

You're right. I didn't think about that possibility However, before seeing Barry's endgame with someone else we still have to "suffer" through Iris's pregnancy unless they do a time jump and skip the years Barry has spent with Iris. I feel kinda ridiculous typing this out tbh...

Unless I'm misunderstanding MT is not really a Thawne but an Allen adopted by the Thawnes. They could do the same thing for the show. Have him be Barry's long lost brother adopted by Eddie's family. MT would have no biological relation to Eddie.

I see but you're talking under the assumption that in the future Iris and WA could not benefit the show. Could, may, might...It's just a possibility. As of now, nothing indicates that the show needs to ditch WA. Last year, the show had WA as the central romance and did great in the ratings. I can't talk about what may happen in the future, I just go by what happened in the past and what's happening in the present.

Fair enough. I can't compare a TV show to real life though. Maybe it's just me but having Barry end up with someone else while Iris is still his one true love does not make for a compelling love story.

I agree that shippers that use SM are not a faithful representation of the general audience but the people involved with the show take into consideration fan reactions. Also,

Me too.
1x12: promoted as a SB episode. The ratings hit season low. The synopsis, AK's and the actors's interviews mentioned SB going on an "inadvertent date". People that don't use SM maybe don't know anything about those things but they watch promos. The promos for 1x12 used SB and Barry/Linda.
1x15: promoted as a WA episode through interviews and leaked pics of the kiss. The episode didn't have great ratings but I know for a fact that the promo used for TV didn't have Iris, let alone the WA kiss.
The WA kiss was the only one not used for TV promos.
1x20: promoted as a WA episode. Great ratings. A clip with Gideon foretelling future Iris West-Allen was released before the episode.

We can argue that ships don't influence the ratings. That certainly may be true but WA heavy episodes had better ratings than SB/BL heavy episodes.

Fair enough. I guess we have to wait and see.

Mods, are we going too much OT?

bonnie51

That would honestly shock the viewing life out of me. But that doesn't mean that it can't happen.


I believe it is, yes. And I personally would agree with the assessment that having her out of the show completely was a huge mistake. You simply can't have BA with IW, whether together or not.

Granted and all true. Simply pointing out that while they have plans... its not set in stone at the moment.


True, and I doubt they would time jump thru that nor should they. Although I'm not sure I'd call suffering if the other character is not realizing they are emotionally / romantically invested at the time of the pregnancy. if they were... then sure. But if it happens in say hypothetically Season 4, and Person Z doesn't become a love interest until Season 6.... I don't know if thats suffering thru it. Maybe it is I just don't know.


Correct, my point was that Eddie still would have been the last Thawne, technically. From a genetic stand point.


Yes. I'm not saying right now, I'm theorizing about a possible future. There were a number of reasons, along WA it did well in year 1. And there are a number of reasons that its not doing quite as well in Year 2. Still doing fairly well but not as strong as year one.

And that's fine. We differ on that and that's perfectly fine. My only point is that you can love someone completely, be 100% committed to them and their happiness but not be romantically involved... granted, it very rarely happens on television that way.



Yes, yes it did.Now, I would also point out in full disclosure 1- it was a test episode. I honestly would have been surprised had it done well. You were exploring something that had not been really fleshed out at that time, into a canon of where people were not sure what to think of it.

Because on the opposite end, 1x19, rated higher than 1x15. And while it was about Wells, there is a decidedly heavy Caitlin/Barry interaction in the promo as well.

And also importantly, 1x12 scored the same in the demographic as 1x15 as did 1x19. Now, 1 x20 had a 1.5 which is very good.

And while 1x19 was obviously helped by the promotion of everyone finding out about Wells / Eobard's lies... it also in the promo showed a decent of Caitlin and Barry interacting - though not the fake kiss.

And that was basically 200,000 less than 1x20. While I happily credit the reveal of the mystery as part of the reason... I can also summarize that they were going to see more of Caitlin and Barry interacting. Again, the mystery of Wells helped maintain the ratings, I don't doubt that, but thats true for every episode. What else happened in 1x20 played a role in giving it a high rating along with the WA part, both are true, just as I view both as being true for 1x19.

I'm just saying, that while 1x12 was a season low, it was somewhat predictable in that it was something new and different. Now, that there is an actual - somewhat fan base for SB and also Caitlin by herself... the ratings are not really changing much.

2x07 with Grodd shows that. Now it was 3.46 to 3.55 although 2.07 actually was higher in the demographic with a 1.4 compared to a 1,3.


We can. My point is that early on in the series, A- I would expect nothing less. There was no base for Caitlin Snow as herself bur rather Killer Frost. Comically speaking they never knew each other as anything but adversaries.

So in short order, you have a new interpertation of Caitlin Snow in the universe, you turn off WA shippers in the same episode? I'd expect ratings to dip. They have not and may never climb as high as WA based episodes...although 1x15 was also after a hiatus, and so one might be able to argue to some degree that it also helped.You had WA promoted, you had the show returning from hiatus = ratings. My point is that with an episode after a hiatus, it was not, POSSIBLY, just about WA and what people wanted. Possibly, though I have no way of knowing.

but so long as the demographic stays the same - which is what shows typically favor anyways - then I have a hard time saying that it adversely impact ratings. I mean, in a vaccum, 1x12 did better than 2x09.


As it stands right now, 2x09 had the lowest demographic rating of the season. I'm not putting a ton of stock in that one episode, just I don't put much stock in 1x12. Below is my point really.

Here is what my suggestion or my plan or whatever, is. If they continue to give fans of both ships, moments, reason to hope, etc... for the next year or two, or three, etc. what do the ratings do then. and is there a pattern.


What I can and will say, is there is a fan base obviously for WA. And I believe there is one for SB as well.

And to me, that SHOULD BE A GOOD THING for the show. At least until, god help me, a love triangle comes along. I mean, an actual love triangle not a symbolic one but one where people realize and want to act on their feelings. An honest to god one. Plus, CW writing brains, please, don't do that.

Its one thing if they both happen at various points. That;s fine. Maybe what I honestly expect. but please, no cheating, not typical CW romance drama crap.

But back to my point. the fact that some people want SB and other people want WA and other people want - whatever the heck Barry/Patty, Jay/Caitlin or ronnie/Caitlin and Cisco/?are called.

All of those things should be good for the show. I just don't get how that translates into people insulting the actors and actresses on twitter, insulting the producers and insulting each other on twitter and tumblr, etc. I don't get that.

Maybe its just me I can enjoy WA episode like 2x09 where real moments and you can what they mean to each other. Doesn't take away my enjoyment from other things either.

Maybe why its I hate the phrase "OTP" because I just don't get the screaming and the yelling and insulting and everything. Having passionate fans should mean, to me, that you can develop characters and develop different relationships and not have fandom insulting and screaming at itself and each other and acting like its trying to tear each other apart.

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing, nothing wrong with shipping different things. I just wish people would seem to understand that better than what they seem to do on twitter and tumblr.



The ratings thing is why I speak about some unknown future. because its too early to me, IMO, to definetely saw that one ship effects ratings. If it continues for another year? Or two? Oh, yes, absolutely then. but right now when its basically little more than a baby or toddler in television terms? Its a little early

FireQueen

I meant suffering as a viewer regardless of what the other character is feeling. I personally would avoid this kind of storyline in a superhero/action show.

I'm getting lost tbh. He wouldn't be the last Thawne if apart from Malcolm he had other brothers he had a biological relation to. This is just me fanwanking though

SB was something new and different for comic fans. People that aren't attached to the comics don't have anything against SB apart from the fact that they may prefer a different kind of dynamic. I started the show with zero knowledge of what was canon in the comics and while the first big SB episode was 1x12 the pairing has been teased since the pilot. "You never seem to smile that much!". Sweet music that suggests how you're supposed to feel about the scene. Barry makes Caitlin smile by the end of the episode. They weren't even subtle! Before 1x12 there were other two SB heavy episodes, 1x03 and 1x07. By 1x12 the audience already had an idea of what kind of chemistry and dynamic B/C had. An actual test would have been 1x13 for B/L.
Also, by 1x12 SB/Caitlin/DP already had a fanbase.
Other SB heavy episodes had better ratings than 1x12 but that doesn't say much.
They promoted 2x07 as a Caitlin episode and the ratings went down from 2x05/2x06. 2x05 was a B/P episode. I'm not saying that SB/Caitlin have a negative impact on the ratings, not at all. They don't have a positive impact either though.

Personally, I'm against SB and I don't want it to ever happen. We can agree to disagree here. As much as I dislike SB, I think it'll happen in some capacity. May it be another reality or a temporary relationship.

I don't get the connection between the phrase OTP and being an aggressive fan You can be passionate, use the word OTP, support your favorite couple/character without insulting other fans/the actors/the producers.
Honestly, people have every right to dislike a character/a couple as long as they are respectful. I can reject what the showrunners are trying to sell and even express fair criticism. It's not a big deal imo.

bonnie51

Understood



Eddie was the last "true" Thawne... at least until the show proves other wise.


True, but I'd imagine and wager that if by and large the comic reading fan base of the show rejected something, the ratings would dip.

Fair enough although that leaves me with an incredibly easy counter.

WA were teased as the romantic since before the show had aired. So even people who didn't know anything of comics, for instance, those who carried over from Arrow, would have already heard of Iris and the "something" going on with Barry. Thus, almost ensuring a pro-WA start to Season 1.

Which is good marketing and promoting 101. I have no problem with that. But there is no comparison at all to the amount of promotion and attempt to create a fan base between the two prior to the start of the show. You had the show's regular promotion, comic based fans and fans who crossed over from Arrow and heard of Iris BEFORE the show even started and then again in the pilot.



Going to disagree there. Yes, they had interacted. But it was always in one setting. Doctor / patient. Or "co workers". They hadn't really interacted much outside of the work place before, etc, and yes, the writers are setting it up with the music and everything. Its what shows do. Marketing 101, again. Setting something up.


Other than the fact it scored as high in the demographic and actually out drew 2x09 which was a mid-season finale and introduced Wally West and was heavy on WA / West family drama? Sure.

You or I can spin the ratings at any way we see fit its going no where.
Because

Based on that logic, WA has a negative effect on ratings. 1x15 went down across board from 1x14 and dropped two demographic points from 1x13.

Yes it was, people also knew that Tom / Wells was going to be back as well. So I'm sure that factored in.

Again, based on your logic of 2x07, neither does WA then outside of 1x20 and 1x06. Unless of course you're just crediting WA largely for whole first season and nothing to little else when there was much more going on that and that would be interesting.

1x15 was a clear drop from 1x14 and 1x13, 14 across the board and 13 also had a demo of 1.5 while 1x15 was 1.3

and 2x09, which was the introduction of a huge comic character and teased WA with good lighting, etc... scored lower than 1x12. In Season 2. And people knew some of the more popular guest characters were going to be on. Snart, WW and of course, the Trickster. And was something of B/P at times. And with all that being said while #'s of viewers were higher, scored the lowest demo of the entire season to date. So going on what your using as a "positive effect" that episode should have rated higher.

Whereas 1x19 was promoted as more SB and was an upgrade from every episode since 1x14 and was the 2nd highest number of viewers besides 1x20 since 1x11, including the three final episodes. So that would seem to be positive. So then by your own logic, 1x19 would be a positive impact.

And that is my point. With the relatively limited # of episodes in the show in general... it is premature to say IMO "this is bad for this, this is good for that" because there are instances, in both cases, were the opposite is true. and where when you look at the show as a whole did not do as well or as poorly as you are trying to say (ie 1x15). The only episode it has a higher demo than is 1x16 though it was tied were several others at 1.3

I don't think WA has a negative impact on ratings, to be clear. And if they have a positive, its relatively minimal. and likewise for SB. There are some episodes where the ratings are up, there are some where they are around the seasonal average and there are some where they are done.

Once again I don't believe there is a clear picture 32 episodes in. Which is why most of my earlier points referenced possible changes in the future where things can become clearer.


Oh, I understand that. And while I'm not so much against WA as you are SB... I'm against the idea of something not being able to be changed and this notion that something is going to happen no matter what. Might it be? Sure. I can accept that fact. Not going to stop me from enjoying the show, by and large.

just as I can also accept the fact that I don't have to like it.

As for SB... I like their dynamic but personally, don't really care all that much if they get together. If they did, I'd like to think that the show would give it a legitimate chance - depending on viewer feedback of course - but yes, you may be right on that. And I know for a fact that I don't care to see some alternate universe / reality of them.


And that there is the key. Being respectful. And rather than go into a long list trying to explain something that we are unlikely to ever agree on, I will leave it there.

Absolutely agree. I'm doing the same thing with WA and its a fans right to do it - so long as its respectful. And respect has little to do with plenty being said on social media but again, I'll leave it there.

FireQueen

Fair enough.

I disagree. It's true that Iris was promoted as the main love interest but trust me when I way that SB had a decent amount of fans before 1x12.

1) It's a CW show therefore the audience expects triangles/ship wars.

2) Some fans accepted WA because it was canon in the comics. Others started whining about the race change.

3) I wish there weren't racists in the audience but I live in the real world. They rejected the interracial relationship and attached themselves to the next white woman.

4) The set up with WA growing up together was unappealing to a lot of people. They rejected the idea of Barry pining for his "sister". There are viewers that still call WA incest.

5) Viewers coming over from Arrow had already met Caitlin but not Iris. They also witnessed the failure that was Lauriver and expected the same to happen with WA. For some of them SB was the the new Olicity.

6) In the Internet age, there's a tendency of rejecting the couple that shows establish as canon.

7) DP had already mentioned SB being a possibility during SDCC. That was promotion from a person involved with the show.

So while there were things that benefited WA others worked against it and SB was the default option.

I disagree. I mentioned 1x03 and 1x07 for a reason. Those episodes showcased B/C bonding outside of the work setting. 1x07 had a moment that had people wonder if Caitlin was about to kiss Barry before Cisco interrupted them.

Comparing 1x12 and 2x09 is not fair imo. S2 ratings are worse as a whole. You can blame WA/Wally/the villains/the Flash-Patty team up/the Christmas atmosphere but there's no way of knowing what caused "poor" ratings. Of course, the same can be said for 1x12. We can blame SB/Barry-Linda/the villain of the week but what do we know?
I mentioned 1x12 poor ratings because you said WA may have a negative impact on the ratings in the future. I pointed out an episode promoted through two other couples that didn't have stellar ratings but that's how my argument ended

I'd say the same for WA. I mentioned 1x20 because, again, you talked about WA possibly having a negative impact on the ratings. Of course, the success of that episode and S1 as a whole isn't entirely due to WA but S1 had WA as the central romance and while the love story may not have attracted viewers it didn't chase them away either.

What I said above. I don't get why you're making assumptions but let's stop here...

I agree but we can't discuss what might happen.

I know that people can be OTT and straight up rude on SM but why are we discussing it here? If you have a problem with me, if you feel that I'm being disrespectful you can be straightforward and discuss it with me. But I am not responsible for what happens on SM, neither are the other posters here so why is this a topic of conversation?

Honestly, we're going in circles. I want WA, you want the show to explore other couples. Maybe I'll change my mind, maybe not but that's how I feel right now. I started the show with an open mind and after the pilot I was fine with both WA and SB. I started rejecting SB after 1x03 and fell completely in love with WA by 1x08. However, after 1x09 I was fine with SB as a temporary relationship but the events of 1x12 cemented my dislike for the couple.

We're way OT, we may need a new thread and I can't open it...

Summer Falls

sorry guys new thread time but feel free to continue the discussion in the new thread

New thread