The Borgias - David | Juan #13: "I glimpse us, Cesare. Two brothers in harmony, walking together." - Juan to Cesare - Page 6

Jemima1205 · 08-12-2018, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikki K (View Post)

I mean it was a combination of how history views him, how Philippa Greogry wrote his character and how the character was adapted for the TV show. I felt it was a shame that we didn't get many scenes between David/George and Eleanor/Isabel alone. I mean there was the one in the beginning, where she teased that there are all those Woodville girls and they all want marriages and he asks her if that's not what she wants too. In a way it read hostile and maybe it was because George's ambitions were constantly curbed by Edward and later when he married Isabel, her father basically tried to pull his strings like a puppet but couldn't make anything happen for him. After the first few years, when George was back at court and got Anne's guardianship (or even before that actually), one gets the impression that he and Isabel – not reconciled because I don't think they were actually at odds except for her grief about their lost baby but you get the feeling that they are on really good terms and she supports him fully. And even though when she is dead, he thinks –*because he is an opportunitst, that a second marriage would be a brilliant idea – the way David played George you also believe that he genuinely feels a profound loss and deep grief because of Isabel's death. Despite him hating Elizabeth for so long, he must have understood how absolutely problematic his actions and accusations would be, and that it would be highly unlikely that anyone would back him to the point where he'd find any sort of success or vindication. It made me wonder, he wasn't exactly stable before but this loss of his wife whom he realised in death that he had actually really loved... that cost him his sanity altogether. I thought David portrayed that marvellously.

Source: Don't Be A Fool

Source: I Capture the Period Pieces

So far I've only watched the first season of 'Victoria' and I like it fine but I think it's a bit a show of lost opportunities. For instance, I wish they wouldn't have just made it about Victoria but perhpas started sooner with Charlotte. And covered more of the Regency period. And even if not and if it's only about Victoria, I feel like there are pieces missing like her half-sister Feodora whom she loved dearly. Instead it often feels they try to make way in the plot for all the stuff going on with the staff and in the kitchens so it can be a substitute for 'Upstairs Downstairs' or 'Downton Abbey'.

As for George & Isabel, I feel the same way. When I watched "The White Queen" with my friend, he was kind of shocked that I really see some kind of affection between them. He thinks that George didn't like Isabel, much less he loved her. But I think it's not true. For example, the scene when she lost her first baby. You can see that he is really sad. Not only because he lost his baby, but also because his wife lost it too. He was kind of stiff in that scene, almost like if he was emotionless or something, but in his eyes I saw a reall sadness. And then I thought that in some way he care about Isabel.
Second scene where I saw his affection was that scene with them and their little daughter. Yes, he was unhappy that he doesn't have a son, but when he picked her up from crib and began to smile at her, with affection, it was obvious that he really love his wife and daughter. Ok, he was talking about vengeance (or something like that, I don't quite remember), when he did that, but still it was very beautiful scene xD. And when Isabel died it was so obvious that he really loved her, because he was so sad (my friend thinks that George poisoned Isabel, -_-). And I think the same way as you, that her death influenced his psyche quite strongly. But I think that also all this Elizabeth's "abracadabra" and "hocus-pocus". First Isabel, and also Anne, was obsessed about that Elizabeth want to kill all her babies by putting some curses on them, and then George became obsessed about it too. So he became a little bit insane because of Elizabeth, but when Isabel died, then it was even worse.
Sometimes I was under the impression that Isabel was kind of afraid of him, especially when he became slightly insane.

By the way, these pics with George and Isabel are so beautiful.

As for "Victoria", I don't know where I read it, but there are some rumors that Victoria's half-sister gonna be in third season.

Nikki K · 08-12-2018, 01:53 PM

I think the scene on the ship –*I'm not sure I saw affection. I didn't see it as him disliking Isabel either though. Losing children in that day and age was the norm, so I think when he told her "there will be others", he meant to be encouraging although she obviously perceived it as tactless in the moment having gone through the ordeal with her sister pulling the dead baby out of of her. It's also a tricky scene because Anne was still in the room, they were not alone.
t
No, the affection he had for little Margaret was obvious. And I don't think there is any evidence for your friend's theory – be that in history or even in the series that George would poison Isabel. Like I said, I think they had grown close at that point. And he depended on her inheritence. Even if he didn't love her that's enough reason not to poison her because Edward was very suspicous of George. He wouldn't have let him make a more advantageous marriage. I mean remember how livid he was when George married Isabel against his will. George couldn't have done the same thing twice and got away with it and he knew that. So yeah, no your friend is mistaken, George may have had many faults but he wouldn't have killed Isabel. I agree that Anne and Isabel, their obsession with the idea that Elizabeth may have cursed them, was something that George had probably taken on in his grief over Isabel's death. I mean Isabel obviously died of childbed fever, that wasn't uncommon for this time and age, but I think George just needed someone to blame because he realised that there were times when he could have treated her better and now he couldn't make it up to her. I think he even may have said s at some point – at least I remember that he said to Anne that he loved Isabel and maybe he realised that too late.

I think Isabel wasn't afraid of George so much – she was mainly afraid that she'll end up cursed. I think she felt cursed from the moment she learnt that her father was responsible for beheading Elizabeth's father and brother. It was clear that Elizabeth would never forgive that and she saw that Edward was on her side no matter what. One of the scenes that stuck out most for me with regard to Isabel was when she met with her father in the courtyard as he was riding off to fight for Henry VI (and the chance that Anne and her new husband would inherit the throne). By that time George was already thinking of absconding and going back to fight with his brothers. I remember Isabel shaking and asking about what to do. And her father told her that she'll be fine either way that she just has to wait until she is really sure who won the battle until she declares her allegiance.

I know... I thought David and Eleanor made a really beautiful couple. I hope that one day they'll be in something else together.

Oh, that'd be marvellous to finally see Feodora!

Arinna - I think it would have been interesting if they had started earlier and made it about Princess Charlotte and then later about Queen Victoria... I feel it's this neglected area historically in the sense that we mostly know it from literary works but not for its history as such.

**PhoenixRising** · 08-12-2018, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikki K (View Post)

You make it sound like you're in Hawaii and I'm in Maine, Alex.

Well... I've grown up and lived all my life in the Philadelphia/Delaware valley area, Nina.

So to me New York is far away.

You're about 97 miles(156 kilometers) from me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jemima668 (View Post)

Once again thanks for all this answers, Alex.

You're welcome, Jemima!

And OMG, you guys posted a lot of stuff!

That's a lot of conversation that happened while I was gone.

Thanks for the videos, Jemima!

I know you posted the links, but I embedded them for you so you can see them on the thread.

If you want, I can tell you how to do it yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jemima668 (View Post)

As for videos, at this moment I have two favourites.

First one is a fanvid about Juan

. It's kind of different from all fanvids that I'v seen, because it's funny xD. I know that in season 2 Juan is a sad and dark character, and that's why most fanvids about him are sad/dark. But in season 1 he was kind of funny and so adorably annoying

, and 'cause of that I really wanted to see some funny vids about him, and that's how I found this one:

As for the second video, it's a music video (video clip?) of band called "FOXES!", with David's guest appearance in it

.
And good God, he is soooo cute and adorable there.

. I so love this music video, the song, lyrics, and the fact that David is in it.

Jemima1205 · 08-13-2018, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikki K (View Post)

I think the scene on the ship –*I'm not sure I saw affection. I didn't see it as him disliking Isabel either though. Losing children in that day and age was the norm, so I think when he told her "there will be others", he meant to be encouraging although she obviously perceived it as tactless in the moment having gone through the ordeal with her sister pulling the dead baby out of of her. It's also a tricky scene because Anne was still in the room, they were not alone.

Yes, you're right. But still I see some kind of affection in his eyes, beside the sadness. At first, when I saw this episode for a first time, I thought that he is going to yell at her. That he will blame her for losing their child. Especially that it was a boy. But he didn't do this, and I was kind of surprised.
But as I mentioned before, I have very mixed feelings about George, and that scene on the ship is pretty good example of it.
I somehow can't quite figured him out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikki K (View Post)

No, the affection he had for little Margaret was obvious. And I don't think there is any evidence for your friend's theory – be that in history or even in the series that George would poison Isabel. Like I said, I think they had grown close at that point. And he depended on her inheritence. Even if he didn't love her that's enough reason not to poison her because Edward was very suspicous of George. He wouldn't have let him make a more advantageous marriage. I mean remember how livid he was when George married Isabel against his will. George couldn't have done the same thing twice and got away with it and he knew that. So yeah, no your friend is mistaken, George may have had many faults but he wouldn't have killed Isabel. I agree that Anne and Isabel, their obsession with the idea that Elizabeth may have cursed them, was something that George had probably taken on in his grief over Isabel's death. I mean Isabel obviously died of childbed fever, that wasn't uncommon for this time and age, but I think George just needed someone to blame because he realised that there were times when he could have treated her better and now he couldn't make it up to her. I think he even may have said s at some point – at least I remember that he said to Anne that he loved Isabel and maybe he realised that too late.

You're so right in this too. And you described it so beautifully.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikki K (View Post)

I think Isabel wasn't afraid of George so much – she was mainly afraid that she'll end up cursed. I think she felt cursed from the moment she learnt that her father was responsible for beheading Elizabeth's father and brother. It was clear that Elizabeth would never forgive that and she saw that Edward was on her side no matter what. One of the scenes that stuck out most for me with regard to Isabel was when she met with her father in the courtyard as he was riding off to fight for Henry VI (and the chance that Anne and her new husband would inherit the throne). By that time George was already thinking of absconding and going back to fight with his brothers. I remember Isabel shaking and asking about what to do. And her father told her that she'll be fine either way that she just has to wait until she is really sure who won the battle until she declares her allegiance.

Maybe you right, that she was more afraid of being cursed. But still somehow I get this little impression that she was, just a little, afraid of George.
I don't know why. Or maybe I just imagining it xD.
As for that scene, yes, I remember it. And in general, I felt sorry for Isabel. She just wanted to be loved, to have a loving husband and children.
She never wanted to be a queen, she didn't want to take part in these wars, in this whole fight for the throne.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post)

Thanks for the videos, Jemima!

I know you posted the links, but I embedded them for you so you can see them on the thread.

If you want, I can tell you how to do it yourself.

Oh, sorry, I didn't know that they have to be embedded.

I don't even know how to do it, so if you can tell me, then I will be grateful.

**PhoenixRising** · 08-13-2018, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jemima668 (View Post)

Oh, sorry, I didn't know that they have to be embedded.

I don't even know how to do it, so if you can tell me, then I will be grateful.

Oh, no... I'm sorry, Jemima.

You misunderstood me. I didn't say that videos have to be embedded. There's no rule that says that. If you just wanna post a link that's fine.

I just wanted to let you know that if you wanted to be able to actually see the video in your post that FF gives you the option of embedding the video into your post if you want.

It just looks cool, that's all.

I apologize for the misunderstanding.

And yes, if you want to learn how to embed videos I can show you.

Jemima1205 · 08-13-2018, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post)

Oh, no... I'm sorry, Jemima.

You misunderstood me. I didn't say that videos have to be embedded. There's no rule that says that. If you just wanna post a link that's fine.

I just wanted to let you know that if you wanted to be able to actually see the video in your post that FF gives you the option of embedding the video into your post if you want.

It just looks cool, that's all.

I apologize for the misunderstanding.

And yes, if you want to learn how to embed videos I can show you.

Oh, I see

. Well, embedded video, or linked, people still will see it, so there's no big difference, I guess xD.
But still, I would like to know how to do it. Is it some kind of special code for that? Like for quotes? ( [QUOTE= [/QUOTE] )
Or is it much more complicated?

**BL.Arinna_1982** · 08-13-2018, 01:18 PM

You have to put the YT link here -> [yt ][ /yt]

Jemima1205 · 08-13-2018, 01:35 PM

Thanks, Arinna.

**PhoenixRising** · 08-13-2018, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jemima668 (View Post)

Oh, I see

. Well, embedded video, or linked, people still will see it, so there's no big difference, I guess xD.
But still, I would like to know how to do it. Is it some kind of special code for that? Like for quotes? ( )
Or is it much more complicated?

Aww, no frowning here, Jemima.

This is a happy board.

And yes, the code is just brackets, like for quotes, images, and everything else.

[QUOTE ][/QUOTE] [IMG][/IMG]

And no, it's not complicated.

But Arinna did leave out some stuff, so I'll explain it to you in three simple steps.

Step 1: Copy and paste the link to the video.

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59CvGN8xLAE

Step 2. Remove the YouTube link code all the way up to and including the = sign, leaving just the individual video code.

Example: 59CvGN8xLAE

Step 3. Put YouTube brackets(or tags) on either side of the code, one at the beginning and one at the end. That will embed the video into your post.

Example: [yt ]59CvGN8xLAE[/yt]

Note: I put a space between the "t" and the ] bracket for the brackets at the beginning, like this - [yt ] - so that you could see what I was doing.

You're supposed to have the ] bracket right next to the "t," but if I did that it would automatically embed the video and you wouldn't see what I was explaining to you.

So just remember not to put the space there.

Jemima1205 · 08-14-2018, 06:26 AM

Oh, I see xD. Indeed, it's easy

. Thanks Alex.

As for these videos that I've posted, I really like these two songs, but I think that much more I like the one from vid about Juan.

It's so dance-y, cheerful and lively.

I'm singing this song almost every single day since I first heard it.

And I think that this song will always reminds me about David/Juan, well, mostly Juan.

The second song, from "FOXES!" music video, is also great. Cute, I would say

. And the lyrics are very nice.
There's only a one minus of this song... it's too short. xD

**PhoenixRising** · 08-14-2018, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jemima668 (View Post)

Oh, I see xD. Indeed, it's easy

. Thanks Alex.

As for these videos that I've posted, I really like these two songs, but I think that much more I like the one from vid about Juan.

It's so dance-y, cheerful and lively.

I'm singing this song almost every single day since I first heard it.

And I think that this song will always reminds me about David/Juan, well, mostly Juan.

The second song, from "FOXES!" music video, is also great. Cute, I would say

. And the lyrics are very nice.
There's only a one minus of this song... it's too short. xD

You're welcome, Jemima!

Yep, it's not that complicated.

Oh, I agree.

That dance-y song was very cheerful.

And you're singing it every day?

Isn't it weird when you can't get a song out of your head?

Aww, so this song is what's always gonna make you think of Juan?

That's actually really nice, considering how tragically he ended. I hope you'll feel free to post more stuff here!

Jemima1205 · 08-15-2018, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post)

Oh, I agree.

That dance-y song was very cheerful.

And you're singing it every day?

Isn't it weird when you can't get a song out of your head?

Yeah, since I've heard it I'm singing it all the time xD. I have it on my phone (on playlist, I have there almost 500 songs

) and I'm listening to it whenever I'm in a hurry (when I'm going somewhere), or when I'm exercising, or when I'm cleaning the house.

This song is great for listening while doing all these stuff, because it's soooo fast. Thanks to it I'm doing all these stuff much faster then I would normally do.

And yes, it is kind of weird when certain song just stuck in your head and can't get out xD.
Sometimes it happens that I'm getting crazy about some song and then I'm listening to it and singing it for few months. Because I like it soooo much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post)

Aww, so this song is what's always gonna make you think of Juan?

That's actually really nice, considering how tragically he ended. I hope you'll feel free to post more stuff here!

Well, yes. It's really sad how he ended, and it kind of made me angry -_-. Because I think that most of bad thing that happened to him was his own fault.
I sooo love this funny vid about Juan, that I just needed to post my opinion what I feel about him xD.
I don't usually comment on YT, but sometimes I feel that I have to. xD. I don't know why I didn't post it here, on forum. Maybe I was to shy? I don't know.

**BL.Arinna_1982** · 08-15-2018, 01:32 PM

**PhoenixRising** · 08-15-2018, 06:41 PM

Thanks for that gif, Arinna!

What's that one from?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jemima668 (View Post)

Yeah, since I've heard it I'm singing it all the time xD. I have it on my phone (on playlist, I have there almost 500 songs

) and I'm listening to it whenever I'm in a hurry (when I'm going somewhere), or when I'm exercising, or when I'm cleaning the house.

This song is great for listening while doing all these stuff, because it's soooo fast. Thanks to it I'm doing all these stuff much faster then I would normally do.

And yes, it is kind of weird when certain song just stuck in your head and can't get out xD.
Sometimes it happens that I'm getting crazy about some song and then I'm listening to it and singing it for few months. Because I like it soooo much.

Aww, that's so cute.

I'm the same way, although I usually think of these songs when I'm at work, not at home. I guess because I'm bored.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jemima668 (View Post)

Well, yes. It's really sad how he ended, and it kind of made me angry -_-. Because I think that most of bad thing that happened to him was his own fault.
I sooo love this funny vid about Juan, that I just needed to post my opinion what I feel about him xD.
I don't usually comment on YT, but sometimes I feel that I have to. xD. I don't know why I didn't post it here, on forum. Maybe I was to shy? I don't know.

Well, Juan did do a few things that got me angry at him, but in the end I felt pity for him because he never really got the guidance he needed from his father.

Even though Juan was the favored son, he always felt in the shadow of Cesare and Rodrigo didn't really do his best to give Juan his own sense of worth.

It's nice to see a funny vid about Juan.

I also feel the same way about posting comments on YouTube.

Do you feel comfortable posting your comment here now?

Jemima1205 · 08-17-2018, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BL.Arinna_1982 (View Post)

I soooo love when he smiles.

He look so sexy, mischievous and cute at the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post)

Thanks for that gif, Arinna!

What's that one from?

Are you asking from what tv series is this? If yes, then I think it's from "The White Queen".

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post)

Well, Juan did do a few things that got me angry at him, but in the end I felt pity for him because he never really got the guidance he needed from his father.

Even though Juan was the favored son, he always felt in the shadow of Cesare and Rodrigo didn't really do his best to give Juan his own sense of worth.

I feel exactly the same way. He was the favored son, and everybody knew that... besides him. He acted like an annoying, funny little troll because he didn't want to show that deep inside he really suffer. I read somewhere that Cesare was jealous about Juan (in real life), because he was the favored son and he had an army, and that's why he killed him. But maybe it was just a rumor, I don't know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post)

It's nice to see a funny vid about Juan.

I also feel the same way about posting comments on YouTube.

Do you feel comfortable posting your comment here now?

As for vid, yes, it's really nice to see a funny vid about Juan.

It's not that I don't appreciate those sad ones, because I do and I think that they are great and beautiful, but it's nice to see something funny too.

As for my comment for this vid, well, I can post it here, if you want.

"I so love this video! Juan was so funny in the first season and this song fits him pretty well xD. He was such a cute and funny troll xD. Ok, he was also arrogant, smartass, spoiled, perverted and he liked spends too much time in brothels/whorehouses, but he was kind of a likeable and funny guy xD.
And I really don't know what the hell happend that he changed so much in second season -_-. He became so furious (much more than in first season), aggressive and unpredictable. It was sad watching him like this. Probably opium and his diseases had a big influence on his behavior, but still, it was hard to look at what he was doing and what was happening to him. He became a totally wreck of a man.
And I don't know why, but for some reason I felt sorry for him. Especially when he said that he's been in pain all this time.
On one side, I pitied him, but on the other I wanted to strangle him with my bare hands. In my opinion everything bad that happened to him was his own fault. That's why I more like S1 Juan xD. And yes, he wasn't 100% perfect and innocent in first season, but at least he wasn't so murderous and dangerous like in second season."

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Fan Forum > TV Shows - Past > The Borgias > David \| Juan #13: "I glimpse us, Cesare. Two brothers in harmony, walking together." - Juan to Cesare