LindaL100

thanks for the gif Arinna, love their Eskimo kisses

here's more cute gifs of Cesare & Lu from S1

BL.Arinna_1982

Thanks for the gifs, hun!

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda! Aww, thanks for those gifs! And thank you for linking us all those Twitter accounts.

You know, just looking at those gifs of Cesare and Lucrezia makes you once again ask the question: What did Neil Jordan expect? You set up those characters in a way that not only implies a romantic connection, but shouts it from the rooftops, what is the audience supposed to think? And even in season 2, they had Juan voice his suspicions that his brother, Cesare, was having "congress" with his angelic sister, Lucrezia. Of course, he was high as a kite on opium at the time, but Juan guessed it before anyone else did. Makes you wonder how Rodrigo totally missed it, although I still think that Vanozza suspected something from the way she was watching them dance, but probably thought it was better not to look into it any further. Better to not know as long as they're discreet, huh?

BL.Arinna_1982

I think he didn't expect that strong chemistry.

LindaL100

yes I agree with you Arinna...like we've discussed before, there's a difference between things that are written on paper and actually acting it out on-screen, sometimes what's written in the scripts do not necessarily translate well when it's acted out on the screen or the acting exceeds what's written on paper. And I've mentioned this many times before, even though there were already many romantic and incestuous overtones in Jordan's writing, but I think the incredible chemistry between Francois and Holly really took Jordan's writing to new heights. It explains why Jordan was surprised by how great Francois & Holly's chemistry was, their awesome chemistry & fantastic performances made Cesare & Lu's scenes and interactions together so much more believable and compelling and intense, and far exceeded Jordan's expectations and how those scenes were written on paper. It doesn't matter how well something is written on paper, it's the acting and the chemistry from the actors that brings the writing to life on-screen.

BL.Arinna_1982

You are so right, Linda!

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda! Sorry, I didn't post on the board at all yesterday. I was exhausted from work and ended up falling asleep.

I agree somewhat, but I also think that the writers bear some responsibility as well when the write a scene with undeniable romantic subtext and claim that it was "all the actors." Francois and Holly had amazing chemistry, but they didn't choose to lie on a grass lawn gazing into each other's eyes - that was all on the writers and the director. It's just like what happened on Heroes with Peter and Claire, and this is something that Arinna and I have also agreed on. If you want to establish that two characters are relatives, don't have them meet in such an overtly romantic way as Heroes did with Peter and Claire, and then reveal that Peter's older brother is Claire's biological father four months later. What were they thinking? Weren't they paying attention when those scenes were being written, filmed, and edited before airing?

It's the same with Cesare and Lucrezia. Sure, Holly and Francois can be given credit, but I suspect that if any other actors were in those roles that fans would definitely get the same impression of romantic subtext. Heck, if you took those Cesare and Lucrezia scenes and used them for an entirely different show with entirely different characters, people would definitely think they were romantically suggestive. I think if Jordan was surprised, he should remember that he wrote those scenes in a way that only emphasized Francois and Holly's chemistry, but those scenes would still have been viewed as romantic or suggestive no matter who was playing the roles, albeit to a possibly lesser extent. So if Jordan didn't want any romantic subtext, he could've written those scenes differently. I'm glad he didn't, and I'm glad that Francois and Holliday took what was written for them and ran with it.

LindaL100

Alex:

I think you may have misunderstood me, I never implied that it was "entirely" the actors and their chemistry that made the Cesare & Lu relationship so great and believable, of course the writing is partially responsible for that. It's the writers who create the storylines and the dialogues, but at the end of the day, it's up to the actors to act out what's written in the scripts and translate what's written on paper onto the screen, it's mostly the acting and performances of the actors and their chemistry that makes the writing come to life on the screen. And the chemistry between the actors is so important because as I've mentioned before, the chemistry is what makes the storylines and interactions between the characters that much more believable. I don't think I need to mention Francois' lack of chemistry with Sarah Ramos again to prove my point, do I? If the actors lack chemistry, then the storylines just don't work and becomes unconvincing, such as the disastrous and so fake Manfred & Creek romance in Midnight Texas, even despite the fact that their characters had so much romantic scenes together in the show. Of course all the romantic writing and interactions between Cesare & Lu played a significant part, but I think it had more to do with Francois & Holly's chemistry, their great performances and chemistry was what brought Jordan's writing to life on-screen. if Francois and Holly had lacked chemistry together, then all their scenes together would've been very flat and unconvincing and their incestuous relationship would not have been believable. Jordan's writing set the benchmark for Cesare & Lu's relationship, but it was Francois & Holly's chemistry and performance that took Jordan's writing to exceedingly new heights and made the incest plotline believable, at the end of the day it was Francois & Holly who made the writing come to life on the screen.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda! Sorry, I was busy on one of my other boards that I moderate.

Oh, sorry if I misunderstood. Yeah, I know that you know that it wasn't entirely the actors and that the writers are also the ones who made Cesare and Lucrezia work as a romantic couple. So do you think that the writers simply don't quite see what they've written until it's actually acted out? I always assumed that the writers would have some idea in their heads as they were writing the dialogue and scenes. But I guess that Holly and Francois really made an impression on them when they filmed those scenes.

Yeah, the Sarah Ramos stuff does prove the point. There's a ship that the writers are practically shoving down the audience's throats because it comes from the books, but the actors just don't sell it because there's no chemistry between them. It's more from obligation to the source material. And Creek as a character really doesn't have much about her that's interesting, although that's a conversation I'll go into more on the Francois thread. Like we've both said, Manfred and Olivia.

Yes, Francois and Holly's chemistry made it work beautifully. But I also think that their understanding of the material helped a lot. I think they saw what was in the scenes and dialogue even better than the writers themselves. And I also think that because of Game of Thrones and other cable shows these days, there's less hesitance to show that kind of provocative storytelling on TV these days. The incestuous romance between them wasn't just done in a provocative way, it was really romantic and beautifully done. Especially that love scene. I just wish we had one more. That scene where she wakes Cesare up and he grabs her neck and starts kissing her neck could've been a morning after scene.

BL.Arinna_1982

LindaL100

Alex:

Well I think Jordan and the other writers certainly had an idea in their heads about how their writing was going to play out to a certain extent, I mean they did write the screenplays themselves, so they should've had some understanding of what they were trying to convey to the audience in their writing. But you just don't know how things would turn out when you try to translate what's written on paper onto the screen in live action, because it's so different, as I mentioned before, sometimes certain things that's written in the scripts don't necessarily translate well onto the screen, and often the opposite can happen, and you also have to consider the chemistry between the actors...so you really don't know how things written in the scripts would turn out in live action until the actual filming begins. I think the chemistry between Francois and Holly was just so incredible that they really surprised Jordan and their performances far exceeded Jordan's initial expectations in terms of Cesare & Lu's relationship. So I think basically Francois and Holly just sold the incest plotline too well as far as Jordan was concerned, but for me and I'm sure to many other fans, they portrayed their characters and the incest so perfectly they might've been "too" perfect for Jordan though.

Arinna: thanks for the gif

BL.Arinna_1982

You're always missing when you're not here, Linda!

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda!

So you think that Ces and Lu were "too" perfect for Jordan? That's a good way to put it. But I would also say that Ces and Lu were also tragic in that they found each other's perfect mate, but were cursed by the fact that they could never be a true couple because they were siblings.

I do think you have a point when it comes to writers not knowing how things are going to play out when the scripts are actually filmed and performed by actors. But I also think that the writers have to be able to realize when their scenes have a lot of subtext, or even blatant romantic themes. Even if you don't know if the actors will have chemistry, the characters on paper are obviously into each other from the way the scenes and dialogue are written. I often think that perhaps the writers just weren't paying attention to what they were writing, or perhaps weren't entirely cognizant of what it was they were writing, perhaps. I think that they perhaps should've been more careful with the way they wrote the scenes if Jordan didn't intend any incestuous implications... but I'm glad that they weren't.

LindaL100

Alex:

I actually meant Francois & Holly's chemistry was probably too perfect for Jordan, I don't think Jordan had initially anticipated for their chemistry and performance to be so incredible and brilliant as they were...thus as I mentioned before, their very convincing and beautiful portrayal of the incest plotline probably far exceeded Jordan's initial expectations.

I agree with you that Cesare and Lu's lovestory was also very tragic despite how beautiful their relationship was...I think the tragedy of the incest only made the siblings' relationship all the more compelling, their story is a tragic but beautiful forbidden lovestory that will most likely end sadly because of the fact that they were siblings, thus it's near impossible for Cesare & Lu to live happily ever after together I think the sadness and tragic aspect of Cesare & Lu's incestuous relationship just made so many fans want to support the siblings' lovestory even more Despite how beautiful Cesare & Lu were together, they were still siblings and they would never have been able to have a happily ever after ending, they loved each other but could never have a happy ending, and I think that tragedy is what made so many fans sympathise and empathise with Cesare & Lu's relationship, and why so many fans loved the siblings and rooted for them and wanted them together and why the incest became so popular If it had been easy for Cesare & Lu to be happy together with the blessings of society, then I don't think their incestuous lovestory would've been as compelling to the audience.

BL.Arinna_1982

Lindaaaaaaaaaaaaa!