KatherineFierce

Dude! It's funny. I'm a feminist to the core and I generally abhor stereotypes so I'm quite ashamed to admit that I honestly assumed that there are no guys here. It's stupid now that I think of it but seriously, your long posts (communication, feminine trait, check) you use lots of smilies (expressive, feminine trait, check), a shipper (a romantic, feminine trait, check). I seriously just assumed. I'm sorry.

I do wish we had spent more time with Vanozza. I like all the women in this show (except for Ursula). It would have been nice if Vanozza had her own agenda/opinions other than that being an ear for her kids and ex-lover. She was a courtesan, she was very observant herslf and had Theo. They could have done more with her. In addition to discovering that her children are in love.

He was so on EDGE at that wedding. He was tense at Lucrezia's first wedding too but so much more was at stake in this one. He felt out of control of everything. His enemies were circling him, he failed to convince King Perv to accept Giovanni and on top of that he had just kissed his own sister.

I love that observation with Charlotte, especially since I am quite taken with Charlotte However I do not think Cesare and Lucrezia interacted as equals. She's the one who pulled him on the bed and she's the one who told him to leave. I think Lucrezia is often quite dominant with her relationships. She pulls her men by the nose. Even Cesare, except when he said that they will not be pursuing a relationship. He put his foot down quite firmly then and didn't seem to be inviting any argument.

You know what, I can relate to some of her neediness. Rejection is so sore. Cesare claiming her at the end was quite interesting. His love for her has always been so selfess. Lucrezia first. Even if it hurts him, he'd endure it if it meant protecting Lucrezia. Now he's being selfish and taking what he wants and damn the consequences. Even his murder of Alfonso was selfish.

BL.Arinna_1982

I think Lu always wanted to have him, but grew a bit braver after her second marriage with Alfonso. Then she probably realized that no one will love her more than Cesare. Also, I think she's got a bit pissed off of everyone telling her what to do. Besides, remember what she said in season 1: "I shall never love a husband, as I love you, Cesare!"

KatherineFierce

This I believe. She has spent a great deal of her life being trapped and shoved around like a chess piece. Even Cesare trapped her in the end, making her feel like a caged bird.

BL.Arinna_1982

The difference was that she got used to it by the end. She didn't mind spending her time with Cesare. I get that he was a bit way overprotective, but take in mind that she was probably the only human being that he actually loved.

PhoenixRising

That's okay, KatherineFierce. No apologies necessary. Yes, there are guys on FF, but none on this board, sadly. They're usually on other boards, but girls seem to favor the historical dramas. And my long posts are because I'm a Gemini. That's what Arinna will tell you.

Yeah, I agree that not nearly enough time was spent on Vanozza. They did seem to spend way more time on Giulia, didn't they? And I would've loved to have seen her reaction to Cesare and Lucrezia's affair.

I think Cesare being on edge at the wedding is what made the ending even more satisfying. Lucrezia really alleviated his stress.

I actually liked Charlotte. She didn't begrudge Cesare being in love with someone else, and didn't even ask who it was. All she wanted was a child, a title, and a home in Paris so she could stay in her home country. Man, she was cool, wasn't she? You're right, Lucrezia was more dominating and needy. But I don't think that Cesare could successfully resist her, despite his objections. She knew she had him wrapped around her finger. And Cesare never got around to murdering Alfonso, remember? That was an accident because the moron tried to attack Cesare and ended up sticking himself on Cesare's sword. Kinda lucky for Cesare that Alfonso solved his problem for him.

BL.Arinna_1982

Charlotte in The Borgias was written well. She was in the show no more than the necessary. After all, her marriage with Cesare was just a political deal.

KatherineFierce

That girl is a real crowd-pleaser

Gemini, meet Capricorn What's your star sign Arinna?

Poor poor Alfonso. And Cesare didn't even rush to help. He was too busy explaining himself to Lucrezia. Like the dude is dying on the floor and Cesare's priority is holding Lucrezia and making her listen to HIM while Alfonso lay bleeding.

I wonder what it would have been like if Cesare and Lucrezia had NOT been siblings. I tried imagining that actually. Their initial conversation. It would have probably been like Ursula and Cesare and even Lucrezia and Giovanni. Ces and Lucrezia have always been very passionate romantics.

BL.Arinna_1982

I'm also Gemini. Alex and I are born on a same date and no, we're not twins.

I think the actress who played Charlotte was really good. Also, I liked how honest Cesare was with her and about his feelings. He never led her up to think something else for their marriage. She needed a husband and he needed a wife. That was all.

I also loved how right after he went back from France, the first place where he went to visit was Naples, because of Lucrezia.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Capricorn! Yep, you did tell us you had a birthday recently.

Well, I think Cesare was well aware that the wound to Alfonso was fatal. Abdominal injuries back then were pretty much untreatable because they didn't really have the medical technology to repair the damage, especially if the liver was damaged. Your body slowly develops internal infection from a buildup of bile and it begins to poison you, which is why death is slow and painful. That's why Lucrezia had to put him out of his misery.

That's an interesting question. Neil Jordan himself said that Cesare and Lucrezia would basically be the perfect spouses who just happen to be siblings. So what if they weren't siblings? I actually think they'd be like Abelard and Heloise, like Cesare told her.

KatherineFierce

You guys are not possessive about your birthday? I usually hiss like a cat if someone shares the same birthday as me! I am very self-centred.

YES! Although we didn't see them meet. In many of their scenes Cesare is always hovering over Lucrezia from behind. As a girl, especially as one with a small frame, I know how exciting it feels to be so protectively imposed on by masculinity. Not by some random though. I'd hate it if my neighbour starts skulking behind me and smelling my hair. I mean specifically in a romantic context. It's very sexy. I can never get enough of seeing it with these two. Cesare just standing behind Lucrezia.

They would be so freaking dramatic and passionate probably not keep their hands off each other. Theirs would be the only happy marriage in Rome! Very Macbeth-like. In fact exactly like Macbeth and Lady Macbeth! Lucrezia would want something and Cesare would swear with his life that he will get it for her. I hate the thought of my Lucrezia spending the rest of her life making love to a poet when she can have a fierce warrior. Granted, he's her brother, but still. A poet? Blergh.

The only line I like from The Borgia Apocalypse. I'd love to see Francois and Cesare play that. All that face touching and staring into each other's eyes.

BL.Arinna_1982

Nah, I don't mind that with the dates. I was nicely surprised to find someone born on the same date as me.

There was one CL scene I'd loved to see. It was deleted though. Cesare was saying something like this: "The only chunk in my armor that's you!" We even saw the scene in the promo pics, but we never actually watched it,

PhoenixRising

No, I'm not all that possessive about my birthday. I was actually amazed that one of the first people I met online had the same birthday as me.

Oh, so you like it when Cesare hovers over Lucrezia, protecting her with his masculinity? I've always wondered about that. I was never sure if women were offended by a man feeling overly protective of her or turned on by it. I guess it depends on the woman. Yeah, it would have to be someone she knows and cares about.

I actually thought the same, KatherineFierce! I was debating on whether Cesare and Lucrezia could still be cute and innocent as a couple, the way they were in season 1, or if they'd become like Macbeth and Lady Macbeth, and by season 3 it looks like the latter is where they'd be headed. But I think they'd be a really powerful couple if they were allowed to be, and if she didn't have to go off and marry that other guy after Alfonso.

What line did you like from The Borgia Apocalypse? I really didn't pay too much attention to it.

KatherineFierce

Oh I absolutely love it. Definitely. Terms and conditions apply though. It's more about enjoying a man's strength, protection and masculinity. It's lovely when you read it in a romance novel or watch it in a movie or in a series. You love it especially when it's with your partner. If it's in a safe, environment that you have a measure of control, as in with C/L, then definitely. Cesare would never harm Lucrezia.

Like that promo pic with Cesare's hand around Lucrezia's neck. It's extremely hot WITHOUT taking any power away from Lucrezia. She wants to be held that way by him. It would be a turn off if it was not consensual.

Their innocence would not last very long, as long as either of them seeks power. Since both are willing to seduce or kill to get it, then they would eventually go from being innocent to Macbethan descent very quickly. With or without the papacy.

This one:

Cesare says that to Lucrezia. I love it because it's lovely to see Cesare making plans to be with her, sneaking of to have incestuous trysts. It's romantic in a way.

BL.Arinna_1982

You should all check the link posted in the Francois thread! You're gonna loooooooove it!

PhoenixRising

I guess I can understand that. I think with Cesare it's also an extension of him being her older brother and a constant source of love and protection, kind of like Flowers In The Attic. Cathy Dollenganger didn't just fall in love with her brother, Chris, she also felt safe and whole with him. Cesare and Lucrezia are like that. You're right in that their innocence would end quickly, but I think they both grow together over the course of the series. Neither of them leaves the other behind, as they both become the mature, strong, often ruthless people they become.

Wow, that's a good quote! That's probably the only thing I like about Apocalypse. But does Lucrezia say something in return?