Mignonette

Thanks, Alex

BL.Arinna_1982

We forgot, Alex?

Make Them Laugh

not memorable pair or just can't remember certain scenes like me on most shows???

PhoenixRising

I mean we drifted off topic into Cesare's military campaigns, Dave.

That's what I meant, Arinna.

You're welcome, Lila. And it had to be tough on Lucrezia having to sit in Ferrara while Cesare was off conquering the Romagna.

Mignonette

Oh they’re a memorable pair all right! Siblings in love and Yeah, we got off on a tangent which we do a lot Cesar and Lucrezia were inseparable, so discussing one will always include the other. Like how our discussion about Ces’ plans for the Romagna included Lu holding Ferrara for him.

Some say she was a victim and helpless pawn, but no one forced her to help Ces consolidate power. She loved him and would've died for him as he would've for her. It's so sexist and disrespectful to paint her as weak just because she was a woman. She was a Borgia and loved power. Rodrigo, Ces, and Lu were the unholy power triad. She actively planned with them. Rodrigo was the ruler, Ces was the general, and Lu was the velvet glove.

Rodrigo made her governor of Spoleto and she governed it like a boss He even gave her papal authority, sitting her physically on the throne in his absence. Ces wrote that he took the money she earned not because he thought she was incompetent, but because "as a woman she's not allowed to keep it". Until she remarried, he took on the legal and financial (and likely sexual ) role of husband. She always chose him even over Alf, the only husband she loved, knowing that Ces had him killed. There's only one explanation for that kind of love and it's not sibling love

Lu was a great leader, but most writers have focused on her sexuality instead of her brain

Yeah, Alex, I'm sure Lu did miss Ces in Ferrara She had to leave baby Rodrigo in Rome and if baby Giovanni was hers, I can't even imagine being away from them and Ces. Which is why I think she and Ces may have decided to get her pregnant that December before she left for Ferrara to marry d'Este in February. They spent day and night together partying that December in Rome. She gave birth to a still born girl September 2 - nine months from December..hmmm. Ces left the battlefield to be at her side when she was very sick in July. He disguised himself as a knight of St John because riding thru the Romagna was so dangerous for him. He rode hard for 2 days straight. He did the same thing again on September 5 when word reached him that she'd given birth to a still born daughter. He then spent 2 nights alone with her in her bedroom. Sounds like grieving parents to me.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Lila!

It's okay, I know we'll always go back to Cesare and Lucrezia discussions.

Oh, I doubt that Lucrezia was a victim or a pawn. You're totally right that she loved him and would do anything for him. I think that a lot of people just wanted to paint her in a bad light because she was a Borgia. I like the velvet glove analogy. And yeah, I'm surprised that Lucrezia didn't get nearly as much respect as Caterina did.


Oh, so that's what you think happened between them? He got her pregnant before she went to Ferrara? Well, I know her husband really didn't care about what she did. I just wish she hadn't had affairs with those other men. Oh, I didn't know that Cesare did that when she lost a baby.

Mignonette

Well she could be with Ces, so maybe they were substitutes

She couldn't take her baby into a new marriage and had to leave Cesar and her family in Rome. Giovanni Sforza was not impotent, so it's probable that Lu used some form of birth control. Midwives did have effective herbs and women used hollowed out lemon halves as diaphragms dating back to ancient Egypt. Isn't the timing of the pregnancy interesting if baby Giovanni was hers? Taken individually, suspicious things might be explained, but the overall picture points to incest.

Incest babies have a much higher rate of still births: 1 out of 45 for first degree relatives compared to 1 out of 165 for other births. Even if baby Giovanni wasn't hers, there are witness accounts that she looked like she was in the last trimester of pregnancy in December 1497. Maybe she lost the baby.

BL.Arinna_1982

PhoenixRising

I love that gif, Arinna!

Oh, I see, Lila. Good point.

Did they have birth control back then? Lemon halves? Wow.

OMG, they have a higher birth mortality rate? So that's why you suspect that the stillborn child might have been Cesare's?

Mignonette

I love that gif too! Thanks Arinna! Cesar realizes what he's done, but Lu's completely lost in his kiss

The still birth is suspicious, but even more so is Ces' behavior and the timing. He had the motive, means, and opportunity They were together literally every day and night partying in December. She was leaving for Ferrara in January, so they spent every moment together, even staying in the private Borgia apartment at the Vatican.

Cesar had premonitions he'd die in battle, so maybe he thought he'd never see Lu again Giving her his baby would comfort her. Just like in the show when she was crying when he was leaving for Forli. He asked what could console her & she said the only thing that would was another child - his child.

If I loved my brother like Lu did Ces, I'd him 24/7 to be sure he knocked me up before I left What better way to deal with the pain of leaving my child behind than to have my brother's baby in Ferrara? I'd be married (unlike with baby Giovanni, lesson learned!) so who'd know the baby wasn't my husband's'? Only my brother and me! It's what a woman in love would do, Alex. Lots of husbands are cockholded like that and are oblivious

Ces rode to her in July when she was really sick cause he was terrified she might die. But why run to her again 2 months later when she had a still born baby, but she herself wasn't in danger? And spend 2 nights alone with her in her bedroom? Just to comfort her? I don't think so. Birth was a woman's thing and Ces was a warrior. He wouldn't leave his troops in the middle of battle to go comfort Lu. He'd wait until the battle was over. Maybe he wanted to see his baby before she was buried and grieve with the only other person who completely shared his grief?

BL.Arinna_1982

I don't think either of them expected that kiss.

PhoenixRising

And didn't Lucrezia's third husband feel suspicious of that, Lila? I mean, they both had affairs and he really didn't seem to care, but if he suspected that she was sleeping with her brother, wouldn't that be an issue?

Oh man, I hope Cesare never told Lucrezia about his premonitions. She'd be even more miserable than she already was. OMG, Lila! Really? You'd fantasize about Cesare being your brother?

Yeah, well I understand that a lot of husbands had that happen to them back then, I just would hope that today it's unnecessary.

Yes, I remember you telling us before that he rode out to her when she was sick. Well, if they were doing anything he'd have to be very gentle since she'd be recovering. And that's a good theory about why Cesare went there when Lucrezia had a stillborn child.

Mignonette

No Alex, you dirty-minded boy, I don't fantasize about him being my brother. If my brother was as hot as Cesar the sex God Borgia, then HELL YES I'd him and have his damn babies too

Ces and Lu weren't having sex after she went to Ferrara. Her husband had mistresses and was rarely home. He'd heard the incest rumours and didn't care. It was his father who voiced objections to the marriage based on her reputation and the rumours. All her husband wanted was heirs and was indifferent to her lovers. It was a marriage of convenience.

It takes several weeks for a woman's body to heal after childbirth. Emotional intimacy was what they shared during that time, but I'm sure he laid cuddling her in his arms all night and they comforted each other physically without sex. She'd just lost a full term baby and would've been very emotional. And who traveled all the way there for her? Her husband - the supposed father of her dead baby? No! Her father - the child's grandfather? No! Only her BROTHER - the one accused of incest with her - the man who thought only of his army, the conqueror who lived for power - he's the man who flew to her side 2 days after she delivered a dead child. What does that tell you?? She was his baby.

He didn't go comfort Lu when she lost other children. Or visit when she had d'Estes' babies. They were most certainly NOT Ces' cause he wasn't in Italy when she conceived any of them. He never saw his daughter, Louise. He was in Navarre, a free man in service of King Jean - his brother-in-law. Charlotte and Louise (already 7 years old) were living in Navarre. Wouldn't you think he'd make arrangements with the King to see Louise? Nope. He treated baby Giovanni as his son every single day of that boy's life. He had little Giovanni, Rodrigo, Giralamo and Camille with him when he was running for his life from the Orsini's through the secret underground tunnels. His and Lu's children meant the world to him & he left them all in Lu's care (except Rodrigo cause it wasn't possible ) Lu was more of a wife to him than a sister.

BTW, historians that believe Rodrigo was Giovanni's father based on the secret second bull do so because years prior, Rodrigo issued a bull proclaiming Ces' was the legitimate son of Vanozza's husband so that he could be a cardinal and then on the same day issued a second secret bull proclaiming that Ces was his illegitimate son. He did the same thing with Joffre so that he could marry Sancia. Historians point to those 2 events to say the second bull of Giovanni's paternity must be the true one. BUT they're making a critical logical fallacy: Rodrigo didn't hide the second secret bulls about Cesar & Joffre. As soon as Ces was cardinal and Joffre married Sancia, Rodrigo had those 2 second bulls entered into the official record. The secret was up. With Giovanni's second bull, he locked it inside a hidden drawer in his personal desk in the private Borgia apartment where he kept only personal business. He never intended to enter it into the record. Those historians say he did that so Giovanni would inherit after Rodrigo died since sitting popes cannot have illegitimate heirs. But hold on: while still alive, Rodrigo gave ALL his wealth to Cesar. And Cesar made Giovanni his sole heir, giving him everything including 2 duchies from his conquered lands in the Romagna. So that's nonsense. The reason Rodrigo made a second bull and locked it up was for insurance to protect Lucrezia. He was well aware of the rumours of incest and pregnancy. If the rumours took shape, she'd be ruined and couldn't make a marriage alliance. Without powerful allies, their enemies would've seized power. Cesar and Lucrezia would've faced the gallows with Sforza leading the charge! See what was at stake? Rodrigo kept the ace up his sleeve by issuing that secret bull on the same day he issued the first. If the worst happened, he could go to his desk, pull out that bull and cry " Look! I'm the father. I was simply trying to protect my little boy's inherentance!" It was a brilliant strategy. Many historians don't get it, but as my father the historian is fond of saying "Historians aren't rocket scientists!"

BL.Arinna_1982

PhoenixRising

Thanks for that gif, Arinna!


Oh, okay. Thanks for explaining that, Lila. But damn, really? You'd do that if your brother was that hot?

Oh, so Cesare and Lucrezia weren't having sex during that time? Yeah, I'd heard that Alfonso of Ferrara's father didn't want him marrying Lucrezia and that this was a marriage of convenience. But I'm surprised that Ces and Lu didn't take advantage of that situation, you know?

Ouch... yeah, you have a point. I'm glad that Cesare was there for her during that time. And yeah, you make a compelling argument for Cesare being the father. That's true, she did lose other children. Oh, and I already knew about the second papal bull and all that other stuff. It is odd that Rodrigo couldn't seem to figure out what to call baby Giovanni.