BlondieLeigh

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Artemis

TFTNT! Great title! So true!

Coconut12

Regarding the Liars and Jenna, I think her view switched on the Liars when Hannah saved her life.

She's obviously not going to want to be besties with them, but it appears her hatred towards them is fading. Warning Emily about Nate was huge for her (even though she did in her usual creepy vague way. so not exactly helpful. lol)

It was interesting to me at least that she stood in the background on the train, it was Noel that confronted the girls not her. Because we know if Jenna had something to say she wouldn't let her boyfriend say it for her. (I guess she could've been dealing with Garret's death) But I think she knows that the liars have been going through the same stuff she's been dealing with.

Jenna's stuck between wanting to help the liars but also wanting to help Toby who is against the liars. So while Jenna puts on the brave face, I think she's really lost now. That's why I hope one of the girls reaches out to her, Hannah and Aria really don't care about her and Emily's decided that Jenna's the girl she directs all of her pent up Alison anger at. So that leaves Spencer, who is really going to need a friend that's strong enough to help bring her out of her eventual mental break.

The other girls will be nice and sweet and tell her it's not her fault. While Jenna will be the one to tell her the truths she needs to hear to gain back her strength. We know she seems to be good at that since she inspired a bunch of people at the blind school.

Geo H.

I agree with a lot of the last post and I think the fire rescue WAS a turning point in the show.I think she may now feel that the girls weren't so much ''evil'' as weak when they let Alison torment and ultimately blind her.The girls were afraid to stand up to Alison for fear that she would shun them and they would become ''nobodies'' again.They essentially left her to die during the Jenna Thing,they knew she was trapped in the garage but they ran away to protect themselves.Hanna (whom Jenna knows HATES her) risked her life to save her at Jason's though,and as she said to the girls Jenna realized ''people can grow''.Nows she's stuck,she's not actively against the girls but she can't yet openly befriend them because the don't trust her at all.On the face of it the situation is complicated,however I think we may well find that it's even MORE complicated than we think.

I think 3-B may well give us the TRUE meaning of Jenna's comment in 2x24,the very title of this thread,"I've never been the person you truly need to fear".Oh,the implications....!

BlondieLeigh

See, I think she knew before the fire that the girls aren't evil. I think she's always known, but she also saw that the way they behaved made it seem that they were, and they would continue to behave that way unless someone showed them that their actions have consequences. She became that person, not just for herself and for Toby after what they did to them (although mainly for that), but also for the girls themselves. She was teaching them a lesson, and after she landed them community service, she thought she had done that, which is why she's been significantly easier on them, and even trying to give them more legit, sketchy warnings, since then.

If I was in her position, I wouldn't want to be friends with them. The only people the girls are really capable of being friends with is each other, and I think a lot of that is because they've each justified what they did for Alison in their heads, but they know deep down that no one else would be able to do the same. Their LIs don't really know the extent of it (Paige, Caleb and Ezra. Obviously Toby does), so they're clueless in some respects, but Jenna does know, why would she want to be friends with people like that?

Geo H.

[QUOTE=BlondieLeigh;66982496] You may be right,though I kinda think that may be the reason Toby is part of -A more than it explaining Jenna's actions.He may want to force them to ''repent their sins'' so to speak,to show them the error of their ways.You may well be right about Jenna though.I do think her getting the girls arrested was a way to publically shame them,to make people talk and whisper about them even if their wasn't enough evedence to really hit them with a murder charge.She didn't want to allow them to walk through life untarnished by their actions (as far as the public knew),she wanted to mark them,always make them the subject of gossip as she herself was.Jenna was a strong and proud girl.When she ended up blinded it made her something of an outcast.She was either whispered about out of pity( "That poor Marshall girl''),or gossip ("Do you know what happened to HER ?")
,and she LOATHED it.Getting the girls in the position to where THEY would have to live with the whispers and gossip may well have been her ''justice''.

The girls have only SLOWLY started to accept how badly they,while in their friendship with Ali,scarred people's lives.They seem to have made peace with Paige recently (they accused her falsely during the whole Nate thing) and realized how badly Ali had hurt her.It's important to note though that they were unaware that Alison was after Paige,they really didn't take a role in hurting her,they just assumed when they found out she HAD been a victim of Ali that SHE was out for revenge against them.Paige was good enough to forgive them,now they can become friends.

They THOUGHT Toby had forgiven them and have almost thought of him as a saint.The revelation that he HASN'T forgiven them is gonna be a HUGE shock.It will also remind them of just how HORRIBLY they hurt some of the people around them.

Unlike Toby,they have never seen Jenna as a friend,they've always seen her as a bad guy.She is the one they really SHOULD make peace with,all the more so if she truly isn't out to get them.They still cling to the possible fiction that Jenna is part of -A /hurt Alison and use it as an excuse to hate her and,by extension,NOT deal wiith the fact that they completely changed the course of that girl's life.They still can't bring themselves to apologize to her.Jenna will have to dramatically be revealed as NOT being their enemy for them to ever admit they really wronged her,they will need major prompting to do the right thing.

As to why Jenna might choose to ultimately be their friend,well,if she isn't part of -A then she very likely is also being threatened by them.She and the girls may have a mutual enemy,a team-up might be in order.That COULD lead to a friendship.There is also the possibility that she really meant it when she apologized to them.If SHE was willing to apologize to THEM,then maybe she was strong enough to FORGIVE them too.There is the real possibilty that maybe ''evil'' Jenna Marshall is really a better person than the Liars are !

BlondieLeigh

I don't. I think, considering what has been said, that his reason for being on the team is wholly selfish, or completely unrelated to helping them. I could see us finding out that they did worse to him than we previously knew (maybe even worse than they did to Jenna) and he hates them for it, but is conflicted because he now likes them too - which he resents them for.

I think Jenna's the one that in her own way, cares about how everyone else is behaving and wants to save them from themselves. She knows how much Alison controlled them, and how much she's still controlling them, and because she knows she believes she can save them from Alison's influence even if they won't break away from it themselves. I think she sees the same with Toby - she sees the hold the team have over him and believes she can save him from it.

Obviously we haven't yet seen when she's doing in regards to Toby, but I do think she has been doing something at least, but with the liars she seems to have gone out of her way to imply to them that what Alison did was wrong, that she was nasty, and that sometimes, they behave just like her. She's tried to make them face the consequences of their actions and put them into the position they put the people they bullied. People see her as nasty, but I personally just think she's trying to show them that that's what they are, and she's trying to encourage them to change that, even more so than Noel is. They don't listen because she's Jenna, but maybe one day they will.

I don't think they have. Not one of them has taken responsibility for what happened to Jenna, not one of them has so much as apologised to her, when she, arguably, is the one that deserves it the most. Instead they continue to bully her. Sure they've apologised to other people, but in some cases that was because they needed that person's help. Emily seems to be the one we get the most genuine apologies from.

She doesn't know what they've done, though. Even though she would still love Emily, and like the others, I don't believe she'd ever be able to look at them the same way if she knew they not only allowed Alison to blind Jenna, but then let someone else take the fall for it.

Jenna does know, and she knows they have shown no remorse for that, ever. As much as I think she wants to help them (because she, right now, comes across as the better person), I don't think she'd ever want to be friends with them, even if they did apologise and she forgave them, they still did it, they still let someone else take the blame, and it still took them years to even realise that what they did was wrong. How could she be friends with people like that? I know I couldn't.

kiss the wind

I don't think Jenna and the Liars will ever truly be friends. She might be on the lookout for them right now, what with warning Emily about Nate, but as Nate was essentially separate from everything except Maya, we really have no idea what her motive was there. I have a few theories, considering Jenna and Toby are in close quarters (or at least were), but I won't post those here bc potential spoilers?

Geo H.

It's true,everything we are talking about here is speculative.We flatly don't know exactly what Jenna is up to,her ultimate plan,even if she HAS an ultimate plan.I suspect she DOES,but again,just my guess.

In terms of the Liars taking responsibility I have been saying since season one that they needed too and the fact that they still have never apologized to Jenna reflects badly on them.I stand by my statement though that they are SLOWLY realizing what they did,what they were part of.When they doubted Paige they described her as ''another monster Alison created'' but had to acknowledge that THEY have been a cog in the evil machine that was Alison DiLaurentis.They probably ALWAYS knew some of the stuff they were involved in was bad (they looked uncomfortable about certain things that were going on,shared doubts between themselves).I don't think it's so much a question of ''they didn't know they were doing wrong'' so much as it was they were afraid to stand up for what was right,to tell Alison ''no''.They were weak and people suffered for it.It's only now that their sins have come back to revisit them that they are being forced to deal with them rather than pretend they didn't exist.They haven't had the BIG breakthrough yet ,the moment were it all just spills out.With the Toby situation about to blow up though,that moment is fast approaching and it will either be a cathartic event for them or destroy them.

Regarding Jenna and the girls ever forming some friendship,I don't know.If Jenna is cleared of a lot of what the girls hate her for I still think it's possible.The truth is everyone would like to have friends and Jenna seems to have very few.I think she's hiding a lot more pain than we've even realized.IF the girls ever sincerely apologized to her I think it IS possible that a friendship could grow if she can accept the fact that in some regards they were also bullied by Alison.Here's the two stumbling blocks standing in the way.One: they have to apologize and really MEAN IT ! It has to be sincere and it has to come from a place other than fear.Anyone will offer up an apology with a gun to their head,it carries more weight when the guy you apologize to has no way to MAKE you do it,it has to come from you,from the heart.Two: Jenna HAS to be the bigger person here,if she cannot put aside her hate,her resentment and pain then it will never happen.Truth is she has every RIGHT tro feel all of that anger and resentment,she was the wronged party.Sometimes though one person has to be the bigger man (Or woman)and realize that if you ride "an eye for an eye'' to the end of the line EVERYONE ends up blind.If she is big enough,STRONG enough,to forgive them,then there is a hope of some sort of friendship.Her being an eternal antagonist for the girls doesn't really advance the plot of the show IF she is innocent.I think that there might be more dramatic weight to her arc if she and the girls at least TRIED to make peace,have some connection other than hate.


If she is genuinely "bad '' though,then what the heck,she might as well rain hell on those girls ,make them suffer ! If you're gonna be the bad guy,might as well do it up right ! Make 'em pay.

BlondieLeigh

I think she always has a plan. She strikes me as a person who knows exactly what she's doing. I just don't think it's an evil plan. It doesn't necessarily have to be good, either, though, just a plan to make things better for her in the long run, which would include getting these girls to stop being bullies.

I only think that's true with Emily. The others, I think Aria especially, very rarely acknowledge that they did anything wrong, very rarely apologise and mean it, and are generally still quite nasty to a lot of people. Emily's only real block here is Jenna. Jenna seems to be the only person she doesn't acknowledge doing anything wrong to.

It's impossible for them to not have known. You're right, they were weak, that's where they were wrong. Alison was one person, they are four. Alison needed them more than they needed her, and it's a shame that they didn't see that.

I don't think it is. Even if she is cleared, it doesn't change what these girls did and still do to her. Being friends with them would be like saying their bullying her is okay. I think Jenna knows that it's better to have no friends than bad friends, and it's not as if she'd be completely alone, she does have Noel, and just because we don't see her with other people, doesn't mean she doesn't have friends, just that they're not relevant enough to be on the show.

She can put aside her resentment for them and forgive them, but expecting her to be friends with them after everything they've done to her is asking too much, and I'd like to think that the liars know this.

Geo H.

[/QUOTE] I think (personally) that she has a plan too,it's just NOT the plan a lot of people suspect.It's my belief that she's been working on it for a long time,often doing stuff right in front of the girls eyes,but they simply cannot grasp what she's doing.Jenna,I feel,is a strategist.The girl's look for immediate results,Jenna lets things develop slowly,she has a long term agenda,she's a planner.

As early as the second episode Aria has stated that they screwed up involving The Jenna Thing.She admitted that they should have told the truth about what happened,moreso that they had the chance to STOP Alison but they didn't.I truly believe she regrets it.
Emily,in season one,tried to get that file of Toby's back with the idea that she might give it to Jenna,I think she too obvioulsly feels guilty.Hanna actually WANTED to tell the truth about the Jenna Thing the night it happened but was bullied by Ali into remaining silent.They were too weak to stop Ali but I think they did regret it.Emily even dreamed about it (in her mind Jenna could see again and she forgave them all,that's clearly a ''wish fullfillment'' dream).Their suspicions of Jenna since she returned to Rosewood have scuttled any chance for an apology from them though,they cling to the idea that she is ''bad'',it's the fig leaf they hide their moral failure behind.
I DO think Aria NEARLY apologized to Jenna in the pottery class,she was broken up when Jenna (thinking Aria was a stranger named ''Anita'') went into a sad revelry about watching light dance on the surface of the water (one of my favorite scenes in the series).Jenna was so kind,so sweet and vulnerable there that I think Aria's heart went out to her.When Jenna realized that Aria had lied to her there (and probably felt she had done so out of malice) her natural rage at the deception scared Aria and she never made that apology.

The one Liar I think who least regrets her actions regarding Jenna is Spencer.Spencer is intimidated by Jenna but she seems to enjoy plotting against her.She was quick to blackmail Jenna with the Toby video (just as Ali had) and her obsession with Jenna really seems unhealthy.I suspect part of it is over her relationship with Toby (she not only hates her for presumably forcing Toby into a sexual relationship but maybe even resents that in some ways Jenna knows Toby better than she does).Jenna I think returns Spencer's hate,of all the (living) girls I think it is Spencer that Jenna hates the most,both for her relationship with Toby and for what she likely feels (I do to)is Spencer's hypocritical,self righteous arrogance.Jenna knows how Spencer has repeatedly done the wrong thing (with her,Toby,Ian etc.) yet Spencer's own sense of self preservation (and maybe a sense of entitlement) keeps her from really acknowledging her own (MANY) faults.Spencer will have to BREAK before she fully repents for her past mistakes.As it happens I think she may break this season !

As was stated on the show,a leader without followers is nothing.Spencer and the girls came to that revolation too late.Because of their weakness and sense of insecurity a lot of people suffered and continue to suffer.


If the girls had come to that same conclusion then this would be a VERY different show.

BlondieLeigh

I think this is why, in the long run, Jenna will always end up better off, because she knows what she's doing and they don't.

I don't recall her ever apologising to anyone that she hurt though, the others all have. Admitting it to yourself means very little. That's not taking responsibility, that's feeling guilty. Same with their feeling bad, that's guilt, not responsibility. They're haunted by it, and they probably will continue to be until they admit to more than just themselves that what they did was vile.

Spencer's relationship with Toby, imo, blinds her in regards to Jenna, because Jenna warns her off of Toby, and considering what we now know, it's not jealousy, she has a good reason. She doesn't want anyone to get hurt. Spencer doesn't want to believe that Jenna is a good person that is trying to help her, because admitting that Jenna has a point would mean questioning her relationship.

I don't think Jenna hates her. I think she enjoys the power that Spencer's obsession gives her, and kind of taunts her with it. After all, even if she is trying to help these girls help themselves, she'd still want to get back at them, and not only does Spencer make it easier than the others, she's probably also the one that bothers Jenna the most, because, as you said, she's so self righteous that she doesn't want to face up to the numerous things she's done wrong.

I also think Spencer's main problem with Jenna is probably the most obvious - Jenna is a reminder of all the terrible things she's done, and Spencer HATES that. She hates that Jenna won't just go away and let her forget it, and I think she hates that Jenna doesn't really do much to them, because she wants something to blame her for.

Geo H.

[QUOTE=BlondieLeigh;67016553]



It's true,she seldom admits she has done wrong (to those she HAS wronged)but she is at least admitting it among her friends and I think Spencer has trouble even doing that.She still tries to justify some of their past acts in a way that I don't think Aria does.Aria in some ways is the most childish of the girls (her Ezra obsession,putting it above everything else, is both selfish and foolish) but I still give her the edge over Spencer in the responsibility front,for at least REGRETTING what they did.There have been moments where it genuinely looked like Aria felt for Jenna (like when she told the girls her surgery failed,Aria actually looked upset).Spencer is so hard headed on the Jenna subject that she seems almost delusional,like she somehow thinks she can rewrite history in some way to where The Jenna Thing was a righteous act.The other girls know it was wrong but Spencer ALMOST seems like she hopes to be able to spin it,finesse it in some way so that it isn't horrible.Spencer has a problem.


.

While I think there is perhaps SOME jealousy in Jenna's warnings (as well as a lot or REAL concern)I totally agree,Spencer has a one track mind regarding Jenna. Any info she gets that makes Jenna look ''good'' she sort of glosses over.Remember Adam,the blind guy from Jenna's school.He sung Jenna's praises,in fact it almost seemed like he was kind of in love with her.She drew him out of a terrible depression,got him involved,gave him a reason to live.He said Jenna was kind,brilliant and dedicated.
What did Spencer take away from all this praise of Jenna ? That she was obsessive and sneaky.A threat.
I think if she ever discovers that ''evil Jenna'' is perhaps morally superior to her,has played more honestly and fairly and has acted to protect others rather than herself (the way Spencer frequently has) it will completly level Spencer.In her mind Jenna HAS to be bad,if she isn't then that means Spencer must accept the fact that she herself is not as good a person as she likes to pretend.An innocent Jenna would undermine Spencer's sense of herself.




I don't really think Jenna likes Spencer because Spencer is ARROGANT.Jenna sees her as a hypocrite and it vexes her.I agree with you though about Jenna enjoying needling Spencer.She baits her and does things to get under her skin.Note that she often called Spencer out (announced that she knew she was there) when Jenna was blind.It always unhinged Spencer a bit and I'm sure it was deliberate on Jenna's part.She knew it freaked Spencer out and she knew Spencer would obssess over how Jenna was able to do this.Spencer probably has some ''tell'' that Jenna picked up on but to Spencer it had to be a deep,dark secret.It's gamesmanship on Jenna's part.

Jenna is a constant reminder to Spencer of her weakness and her greatest mistake.What's worse,even with her family money and influence,Spencer can't get rid of Jenna,Jenna just wont go away.As much as she wants Jenna to disappear,she remains,an albatross around Spencer's neck.She's a living ghost,haunting Spencer and she can't figure out how to be rid of her.

BlondieLeigh

Jenna seems to be one of the few people Spencer won't admit she was wrong with. I don't think she meant it the first time (116 Toby apology), but Spencer did eventually apologise to both Toby and Mona (). Aria is the only one that hasn't admitted that they were out of order when it came to Mona, we've seen both Emily and Spencer apologise to her, and seeing as she was friends with her, I think Hanna had to have done so at some point.

Spencer and Aria are definitely worse than Hanna and Emily when it comes to admitting they were bitches, and I think this may be because, from what I've seen, Alison picked on them more than she did Spencer and Aria, she basically just ignored Aria and I think Spencer tried to give as good as she got. Hanna and Emily were the ones that Ali really went after.

Only Spencer would be able to come to that conclusion, tbh

I don't think Jenna likes her, either, but I don't see Jenna as the sort of person that would waste her energy hating someone.

I found that so funny! Like Jenna had some kind of Spencer detector. She ALWAYS knew, it was hilarious, especially because she didn't really do it with the others

I think that's where most of Spencer's resentment comes from. She can't see Jenna as anything other than a harsh reminder of what is probably one of the most horrific things that she's done, but not only that, she's also threatened by her. Jenna knows what really happened. She knows it wasn't Toby, and she could decide to say something any time she wants. I don't think she will at this point, but she knows that Spencer knows that she could, and that gives her power.

Geo H.

Yeah,Spencer is a keen judge of character ! It's all in the timing,Spence,all in the timing !


Oh,Tammin Sursok is back in the States now.She flew to South Korea,then to Thailand where she starred in a thriller,went on after the film role wrapped to Vietnam,Cambodia,then back to L.A. Put up lots of pics on her Twitter.Guess the film will be out late this year.I think season four of PLL starts shooting in April.