Fuzzy Dunlop

When Kenni and I try to post in the Bellarke thread to talk about them in a generic sense, but then we get kicked out and reported to moderators and given warnings for not being pro-romantic Bellarke. So it's clearly NOT a generic Bellarke thread. And if I bring up my opinions about Bellarke in the episode threads, then April and Sarah accuse me of making everyone uncomfortable.

We have asked you about it more than once in the past and you and Sarah decided not to let us have another thread where we could actually have free speech about Bellarke.

Girl... it's just not that intimate or lingering. It's stuff that I don't even notice until I get on the internet to talk about the show afterwards and there are already a million gifsets of some totally innocent touch... except slowed down with some sort of instagram filter and maudlin music or lyrics over it. Like maybe it's because I work in healthcare, so I routinely touch other people? But I don't think stroking someone's back or hair in these wild life or death circumstances is weird or necessarily sexual? I was literally stroking one of my patient's braided pigtails just this past Friday.

Here's my take on the weird directorial choices, as you say. I think there are multiple contributing factors. The first is obviously confirmation bias. If there's a huge group of people who spend all of their free time going over the show with a magnifying glass to find and promote Bellarke breadcrumbs, then eventually they're gonna start to feel like there's just TOO MANY hints. But for a casual observer, we're not seeing that. But the other part of the problem with this show is that the online conversation is almost entirely dominated by people who have bought into that Bellarke interpretation of the show. Which normally would be totally fine. You can watch the show however you want. But when it's so many people and there's so much harassment on twitter and boycotting episodes without Bellamy or whatever. After a few years, it affects the behavior of the people who run the show. So I think what you're seeing as "baiting" is probably more like super lame attempts at fan service. They've always known you're not getting Bellarke. They said so. Them highlighting their hugs and saving each other's lives is their way of throwing you guys a bone because they know how much you guys like their relationship.

Damocles

I'm sorry I just don't remember that But again, if we did say no to another thread, it would be because there were never supposed to be duplicate threads for any of the show's relationships - especially not one that would be redundant. Like I said before, someone tried to start other Bellarkey threads before and we received complaints.

As for stroking vs stroking in healthcare - that's a totally different environment, filled with empathy and nurturing, etc. I can totally see why you would be touching someone in an intimate way there. Not that Bellarke aren't nurturing or empathetic to eachother, I'm just asking why they made these directorial choices for THIS pairing, and not any other friendship on the show. Their reunion scene in season 5 didn't require a closeup of his fingers on his back. The hug alone would have gotten the point across.

I do agree that them shoving in the hugs and touches is a form of fan-service, which is also a form of baiting. It's not just with Bellarkers though, they've done this with Clexa fans as well. Side note: I've even seen spoiler accounts getting harassed for baiting by Bellarke and Clexa fans, which is hilarious...they are (potentially fake) spoiler accounts, guys I think the only spoiler account that hasn't come out as fake yet is The100screeners?

I disagree that all casual observers aren't seeing the intimacy shown on-screen, though. People I know in real life have asked me, while discussing the show in a general sense, not knowing about my secret nerdy internet life, about Bellamy and Clarke and why they aren't together yet and I'm like . I asked my brother once (who hate-watches this show still) if he thinks they are shown in a romantic light and he said "duh, it's obvious that's where they're going with them". <--joke's on you, brother. So again, it's entirely subjective. Those are just a couple of people from my life who barely talk to me about the show, so I can only imagine there are countless other non-twitter/non-facebook/non-FF fans who interpret these scenes in the same way. It was also fun for people to look for romantic clues and hints over the years, but IMO looking back now I find it kind of annoying and a waste of my energy.

All that aside, from a friendship perspective, I have truly enjoyed their journey but I really worry for the ending - especially because

kenni727

Okay, here we go.

First, lets look at codependency vs “simple understanding of each other's goals, weaknesses, desperation to help save their people, etc” as you call it. The definitiion of codependency is “excessive emotional or psychological reliance on a partner, typically one who requires support on account of an illness or addiction.” It’s so much more complex than what the definition can really explain. But part of is the reliance on another person to justify your poor choices. Bellamy and Clarke continually forgiving one another for murdering massive groups of people is an example of this. Now initially I do believe this was necessary as they were figuring out how to survive in such a violent and brutal world. But the fact that this behavior continued is troubling. They keep justifying this behavior without either seemingly even trying to come up with other solutions. They are in a cycle of killing and violence that each supports in the other.

Another aspect of codependency is low self esteem. I know many Bellamy fans won’t like this, but Bellamy suffers from this. Bellamy had an incredible burden placed on him at a very young age. He was instilled with a strong sense of duty and responsibility because of this. Then when he inadvertently became the cause for his mother’s death and his sister being locked up this transferred to immense guilt. This combined with his continued sense of duty regarding his sister led him to make some poor choices on the ground. But then there was Clarke to absolve him of this. I used to love this. And I still appreciate Clarke seeing something in Bellamy but he didn’t see in himself. But Bellamy came to rely on Clarke to buoy him. There are many examples I could site and am willing to if desired, but for the sake of this already being long I’ll refrain for now unless requested.

Also, though there are further examples of Bellamy and Clarke exhibiting aspects of codependency but will cut it short unless otherwise requested for more.

This all leads to why Echo is healthier for Bellamy. They aren’t codependent. They haven’t developed a reliance on the other for making poor choices involving the life or death of others. They are each strong and support each other while remaining independent. Perhaps Bellamy’s forgiveness of Echo could have led to her being dependent on him for absolution, but I haven’t seen that. I see that she took that and learned to be forgiving herself. Something which took Bellamy a long time to figure out.

Admittedly, Becho can be difficult to get behind since majority of the development was off screen. But I feel the writers have done a good job in other little moments to indicate what their relationship is about. The moment Bellamy convinced Echo to not kill herself but to come to the Ark with them because they would need her I knew they would end up together. I foresaw it would be a key element of the development for both characters.

As to the baiting and intimate shots. Well Fuzzy already responded and I whole heartedly agree with her remarks. But since you seem to want more explanation I’ll give my two cents. Nothing about Bellarke moments is any more intimate than moments between Bellamy and Octavia. It’s all your perception. I feel any of those gif sets found in the Bellarke thread Clarke could easily be replaced with Octavia and wouldn’t seem out of place. And while the moments between Octavia/Diyoza, Bellamy/Murphy, Jasper/Monty, Jasper/Bellamy, Clarke/Madi are not as abundant….well Bellamy and Clarke, until recently, were tied with Octavia for being in the most episodes. Many of those other characters involved in close dynamics have either been killed off or were introduced later.

And lastly, as for the other Bellarke thread. As I less and less saw Bellarke in a romantic sense I no longer felt comfortable posting there. Granted, I hadn’t posted at all through season 5 as I binge watched it almost a year after it aired. And that was the season that kind of killed it for me. But even before then I cared for the Bellarke thread less and less. I found it increasingly difficult to have any conversation of substance in the thread. With some new posters it felt like it was devolving into just squeeing over Bellarke, posting vids and gif sets, or expressing ways in which one wanted Bellamy and Clarke to have sex. I’m not here for such posting.

But then last year I tried to post in the Bellarke thread about the friendship. And I got kicked out. Someone flat out said no one cared about what I said. I pointed out that I didn’t care about something someone else was posting but hadn’t said anything cause it’s still her right to post there. I got attacked for that. I was in the wrong for coming into that poster's safe place and criticizing what she was posting. When I hadn’t criticized. I had simply said I don’t care about her sims since others felt it appropriate to say they didn’t care about my opinion. I was reprimanded by a mod for this. Mod Managers informed me I’m no longer allowed to post in the Bellarke thread unless it’s about their romance and completely ignored my complaint about the mod reprimanding me but saying nothing to those who began the argument with me. I will acknowledge that I had brought up Echo in a non negative way - as that seems to be the only Echo is allowed to be discussed in that thread. I was discussing how I enjoyed Bellamy’s relationship Echo as it relates to Bellamy’s relationship with Clarke. Echo is someone who keeps Bellamy grounded. Such an attachment helps Bellamy in his leadership with Clarke. I can see how some Bellarkers wouldn’t enjoy reading that. But as it was still related to Bellamy and Clarke’s relationship I considered acceptable - relationships with Madi, Murphy, Raven, etc are allowed to be discussed in that thread. But according to the Mod Managers I was wrong.

So no, this thread is not “solely to look for reasons why they aren't or shouldn't be romantic and why Becho makes more sense.” This thread is for discussing them as leaders and friends, as family. And since I was expressly told by Mod Manager that I’m only allowed to discuss Bellarke as it pertains to them as a couple I’m not welcome there.

P.S. All this was written up before I saw the last two posts from Fuzzy and Lisa. Will go read now.

Damocles

Guys please just refrain from mentioning specific posters on here, this isn't a thread to mention how posters have treated you in the past on other threads.

Kenni - please be as descriptive and long as you want, it's refreshing to see someone else's (differing) opinion where they've actually put thought into it and provided their own reasoning for feeling this way. I think that we can agree that we will never fully agree on how certain scenes were presented to the audience, and that it's up for interpretation.

kenni727

I edited my post to remove names of others.

As to the other stuff, I wouldn’t say that interpreting those scenes as romantic is only because you want to. My brother has also commented that he thinks Bellamy and Clarke make sense romantically. But he also hasn’t watched sense season 4. So while I think there is an element of confirmation bias as Fuzzy suggests, that isn’t always the case. But there are PLENTY of fans who just don’t see that. It is still subjective. Yet many Bellarkers speak as those who don’t see them as romantic are blind, obstinate, or stupid. I’ve never appreciated that mindset, even when I did ship them romantically. There was a shipper, who has long since stopped posting here, who flat out called me a liar when I said I would be okay with Bellarke never becoming romantic. It often feels like those who ship them romantically see their subjective opinion/interpretation as an absolute truth and I find that tiresome.

And I still say there are plenty of other scenes of other characters being gentle or tender with each other. Most predominately Bellamy and Octavia. Hence my previous claim that you exchange Clarke for Octavia in pretty much any Bellarke gif set and it would still make sense. Well, you’d have to take out the romantic quotes someone inserted.

I may compile further examples later but for now I need to get dressed to go to lunch and then shopping with my sister.

Damocles

Oh I don't like that mindset either, but there are also fans who are ADAMANT that the romance hints were never there. So really, it goes both ways. I think it's impossible that anyone will ever agree with the opposing side. My brother is fully caught up and I haven't asked his Bellarkey opinion since after season 6 aired. The only thoughts I've received from him this season are "what the hell is going on"

Bellamy and Octavia have had a couple of emotional, nurturing hugs for sure

Fuzzy Dunlop

I don't think healthcare is that different of an environment. Like... why is it different? In both cases you're showing your compassion and empathy through physical touch. It's like a normal human instinct. I don't think it's portrayed in a sexual way with Bellarke.

And they don't actually reserve it only for that relationship. Like I said, this is an example of confirmation bias. You're looking for it everywhere, so you're seeing it everywhere. And this spills over into the casual fans like your brother who can't possibly be immune to the fact that almost every mention of the show on the internet brings up Bellarke because that's what gets likes and traffic. Just like how I've never watched the Vampire Diaries in my life, nor ever had the slightest bit of interest in it, but I sure as hell know what all the big ships are. Bellarke is, in my opinion, like that. Its reputation precedes the show, unfortunately.

So if most of the fandom is clamoring for Bellarke, then they will get Bellarke content. In the form of reviewers who promote the ship and showrunners who add in fan service for you. But that's not baiting. That's the fans demanding certain content from the creators. And you got a lot of it! So many gifsets and elaborate videos and essay and years of fan fiction. And it pains me to watch these people who have been such diehard fans of the show for years turn their back on it at the end because they didn't get the ending they wanted. You guys got so much. It's entitlement, not baiting, if you ask me.



I just feel like... here we are at the end. You guys all love the show and not just Bellarke, right? So if you don't get the ending you like, I'm sure there will be a million amazing, creative fanfiction re-imaginings of how it could have happened with a Bellarke ending. The show will be over, but that kind of creativity can go on forever.

This is always the thing that I find makes me uncomfortable. There was a point in the series, maybe somewhere in S2 or 3, where Jason came right out in an interview and said that he intended Bellarke to be platonic, but he also deliberately wrote them in a kind of open-ended way so that the fans who wanted to interpret their friendship as a romance would have some space to do that. So it's literally written into canon that there are at least two valid ways to view their relationship. But also importantly, Jason has always indicated that he prefers their relationship to be platonic, so that at least was a strong clue that he was probably never going to go there in the end. Who knows. Maybe the ending won't be super final and there won't really be an "endgame" so that the fans can imagine whatever romantic endgame they want. I think that would be fair. But what is really not fair is the way some people in the fandom talk about Bellarke like you're wrong if you don't see them as romantic. And the absolute worst are the crazies on twitter who actually harass members of the cast and crew online.

Damocles

Nobody should ever be calling anyone else bonkers for not seeing what they see, IMO. That goes for any ship on this show. If many, many people interpret Bellarke's intimate moments as something more, they are allowed to feel that way. And if they interpret them as brotherly/sisterly, that's their prerogative. And as long as people enjoy the ship without harming anyone else, then I think there's something to be said for that. My issue with this show's fandom is that the general idea is that people need to degrade another ship to elevate theirs. It's really sad. I think this happens in every immature fandom, though.

You could have some people say Clexa was poorly developed, abusive, etc - and you'll get those people saying the same thing about Bellarke or Becho. It's all just a game and weird competition (especially on Twitter). The funniest part of all, is that these are fictional characters. But people use it as some weird competition to prove who is more delusional than eachother. Bellarke touches? Those are platonic. Clexa love scene? Fan service. Becho in general? Tasya sucks up to Jason to get more screentime. It could go on and on and on forever, because people make it a bizarre sport. It's like a points system - Bellarke isn't romantically canon? Clexa wins! How about just appreciating Clexa for what it was, rather than demeaning other ships? And vice versa. It's just SO weird to me

Anyway now I'm off topic. I will never be convinced they didn't bait Bellarkers, especially with Aaron's comments about Jason messing around with the fans, but at this point who cares. I want a good finale for the show, and I want Bellamy and Clarke to have happy endings but if that actually happens, I will eat my shoe. I've done alot of shoe-eating-threatening lately.

kenni727

It's this idea that Bellarke fans were baited or somehow done wrong by Jason that also bothers me. Given that the scenes in question can be interpreted as either romantic or platonic there is no clear intention on Jason's part to bait the fans. He's showing the closeness of this relationship. If you want to interpret that as romantic that is your prerogative. Doesn't mean that is the correct or only interpretation though. Also, don't then get mad at him for baiting when it isn't actually obvious or clear that the intent is romantic.

I know nothing about Jason admitting to messing with fans. But the way I see it, Jason can do that. Fans have been shatting on him from the beginning. Both Bellarke and Clexa shippers. Possibly some other subgroups of the fandom as well. I don't actually follow this stuff that much. Cause I find it senseless and detracts from the enjoyment of the show. But when from the beginning of a show fans are whining that they aren't getting their way. Continue to watch the show and demand a certain plot to happen even after you've stated that you have no intention of taking the story that direction. When fans threaten you personally and your family. When fans run a campaign to get your show cancelled. Or boycott and campaign to ensure another series you have in the works doesn't get the green light. All because you didn't give in to their tantrums and tell the story contrary to your original ideas. And you had TOLD them that you weren't likely to go with that story as it wasn't part of your original vision. Well I don't blame a guy at all for saying this to his so called fans.

Fuzzy Dunlop

Well... you can decide to interpret Bellarke as romantic, but ultimately those other ships you mentioned are canon and Bellarke isn't. So it's kind of hard to take fans of Bellarke talking about them like it's so obvious and there's so many Bellarke shippers so even if the showrunner straight up tells them they're misinterpreting him, they still must be right and everyone else is wrong. It's been like this cloud of pressure hanging over the fandom ever since S1. There are some Bellarke fans who you can feel them pushing so hard in their posts, like they have to prove their ship is superior as if there's ever going to be an objective measure of that. But it sucks to be a completely neutral party in this and to just have to endure this constant spinning and propaganda and shouting down of alternative view points. It really ruined the fandom experience of this show for me. It's a damn shame. It makes it a lot harder for me to focus on what's actually there on screen and appreciate Bellarke for what I see them as.

You keep saying that nothing is ever going to convince you that they didn't bait Bellarkers. So why are you even asking for my view point on it? You guys decided a loooooong time ago that Jason is an ******* and you're all victims of evil baiting. Honestly, Lisa sometimes it feels like I'm watching Fox News on this forum.

I'd just like to be able to have a reasonable conversation about them without the constant drama of the shipwars threatening to boil over all the time.

destroyer of worlds

I still see my name there, as they also are in Fuzzy’s posts (April’s name too). Just a reminder that this thread is to appreciate the Bellarke friendship as you guys wanted the thread for ... not for accusing mods and posters of unfairness yet again, this isn’t the purpose of the thread as Lisa has correctly pointed out. Again, take it to the MMs again if you wish but these accusations are very tiresome and unproven so please keep them off this thread since it’s irrelevant. You got this thread to air your opinions comfortably, so please use it in line with that.

I also don’t remember any instances of anyone asking for a Bellarke friendship thread in the past, so feel free to bring it up to the MMs too.

kenni727

I edited my post again.

And someone, a mod actually, had asked a direct question about why we would want this thread as opposed to just posting in the other Bellarke thread. So I answered the question. That is all. I made no accusations. Just stated what had happened in the past to cause me to be unable to post in that thread.

sonny1

I think this spoiler account is not fake. The person spoiled everything right for the episodes so far.

Fuzzy Dunlop

Lisa was the one who brought all of this up. If a mod is gonna ask us these questions, then I don't think it's fair for you to come in and pull this attitude about it.

Damocles

I didn't mean from a personal standpoint, so much.
ETA sorry guys, but I didn't ask you who was mean to you in another thread - I was wondering why this thread wasn't started years earlier (by the OP, not you guys), and you said it because I said it was not allowed - even though I have no memories of this, and even though if it was opened I would have received complaints about it from other posters

Well if people could discuss Bellamy and Clarke without having to compare them to other "opposing" ships, then that would work - wouldn't it? We have this issue sometimes on the Bellarke thread, too. Since the dawn of television fandoms, you literally cannot compare ships without people getting up in arms. This show is not the exception. In a perfect fandom world you could compare 'opposing' ships without people getting angry and defensive

I'm not sure why you guys sound like you're getting slightly aggravated with me, when I legitimately just wanted to know your actual, in-depth viewpoints on why you feel the way you do. Is that not what a discussion is? I'd much rather that than someone just coming in here to declare that Clexa or Becho are superior, post a smilie and bounce. As for the baiting, that's also up to interpretation but there are quotes from people like Aaron where they say they outright teased shippers and purposely goaded them for fun, in a 'loving' way (not a direct quote, but along those lines) so you can take that however you wish. Or not at all, I really don't care anymore because if people truly feel like they were baited, that's up to them. And would we really put it past these people? Remember the crap they pulled back when Lexa was alive? It's not a foreign concept.

Sonja: