MistyMountainHop

Furiosity, for your statement about season 8. I can think of a reason (or two) why Jackie and Hyde might break up by the end of S7, but it wasn't prepared for (at all) by season 7. It would've meant exploring J & H in an in-character but different way than S7's regressive, "Marry me, or we're done," scenario.

At the time of S8 and during the first few years after it aired, Zen fans were definitely -- and understandably -- hating on S8!Donna. She was Jackie and Hyde's biggest cheerleader by the end of season 5 and all through season 7. S8 manipulated her character so that she, too, doesn't think Hyde and Jackie should've been together. And, worse, manipulated her character so that she doesn't remember all the support and friendship Jackie gives her during S1-S7 (this was truly the S8 showrunners' POV). The S8 characters' behavior toward Jackie reflects the S8 showrunners' lack of respect for (and understanding of) her character.

It's the best explanation I can come up with, considering what happens between Jackie and Hyde in S5.

ITA. It's very frustrating, which is why in the comics and in fanfic I bridge the gap between their S3 relationship and their S5 relationship. At least DM and MK's friendship didn't suddenly stop because their characters had little interaction, and that friendship ended up giving us hidden (and unintentional) zen during S4.

msstock87

If there was a real reason for them to break up I would have been sad but accepted it. However with how much they grew together, I can always see them finding there way back to each other.

MistyMountainHop

Me, too. I think they genuinely wanted to live their lives together. Hyde, too, despite his S7 character regression "development". Man, S7 should've given Jackie and Hyde a much different storyline that would've created organic conflict rather than the crud we got.

FuriosityShell

Yeah, Donna is the real victim of S8's writing to me. Jackie and Hyde just regressed, lost their great/interesting character traits and had their worst traits exaggerated 100x, but Donna was just completely unrecognizable. As someone who enjoyed Donna as the most rational, level-headed member of the gang (at least when she wasn't spiraling like in S4), I hated seeing her portrayed so ditzy and being so horrible to Jackie.

Yeah. I think Jackie and Hyde were in need of a break-up storyline where they actually GREW and learned from their mistakes, so that way, when they got back together, the problems that broke them up in the first place would be worked out. The writers' inconsistency with writing J/H is just mystifying. The writing in "Winter" was just atrocious. "Don't Lie To Me" was kinda ehh. They knocked it out of the park with "Street Fighting Man" and "On With the Show". More atrocious-ness in "Down the Road Apiece", and then more awesomeness in "Oh Baby (We Got a Good Thing Goin')".

MistyMountainHop

And this is yet another reason why I don't consider season 8 canon. And now you've inspired me to write an essay.

If a character's personality shifts, the shift must be substantiated. We have to be shown why it's shifting; otherwise, it's just amateurish writing that needs a severe edit.

Take S1 Hyde, for instance. For most of S1, he's pretty damn selfish and not terribly likable. But during "Prom Night," we see new sides of him: compassion, protectiveness, and a self-sacrificing nature. These, as yet unseen, aspects don't come out of nowhere. Hyde's dislike of Jackie is never shown to be malicious (I'm looking at you, season-8 showrunners), but he's depicted consistently as experiencing her as an annoyance.

At the beginning of the first relevant scene between Jackie and Hyde in "Prom Night," Jackie sighs repeatedly. Hyde is sitting next to her on the couch, and because he wants to watch TV in peace, he says, "Jackie, if I ask you what's wrong, will you stop doing that?"

This question serves several purposes. One, of course, is to open up the scene so that Jackie can tell Hyde her problem. Two, it shows that Hyde doesn't actually hate Jackie. If he did, he would've ordered her to, "Knock if off!" rather than ask her what's wrong. Or he would've kicked her out of the basement. Or he would've left himself. But he asks her what's wrong -- which leads to three: his question shows us that Hyde potentially isn't only a selfish dillhole. His question might have a compassionate subtext, but that subtext will be determined by what he does next.

Jackie says, “It's the prom. Stupid Michael is taking stupid Pam Macy, and I don't have a date, but I told him I did, and I'm a complete loser!”

Hyde's initial reaction is to laugh. He experiences schadenfreude, which is consistent with how he's depicted in the season up to this point. He's probably particularly satisfied by Jackie's misfortune since he's mostly experienced her bossy and judgmental side.

But something changes. He recognizes that she's hurting and realizes that laughing at her misery might not be the nicest reaction. This awareness comes too late because he's already laughed at her pain, but he makes a course correction and says, "No, you're not [a loser]..."

This is Hyde's self-awareness and compassion peeking through the selfish, mean exterior we've been shown thus far in the series. It's not a 180-degree character shift. It's a tiny but significant drop of compassion blended into his jerkiness. The self-awareness has been prepared for in episodes like "That Disco Episode," where Hyde admits to Fez that he "did a bad thing" by hitting on Donna.

Jackie doesn't seem fazed by Hyde's laughter, though. She says, “It's just that, look -- I thought he was going to ask me, and now everyone that's anyone is already going.”

Hyde's response is an affected, "Oh, that's so true.” He doesn't seem very interested in her problem, but he does enjoy pushing her buttons. He's messing with her.

But Jackie isn't stupid. She says, “How could you know? You're not even going! Oh, wait -- you're not even going! And I bet you clean up real good!”

Hyde says, "Well, I do, but I won't. See, that's a big part of who I am.”

His line tells us a lot about him. He's confident in his looks, but he's not a conformist. He won't "clean up" to fit what's supposedly socially acceptable. This agrees with his earlier depiction throughout the season. He also understands that Jackie's asking him to take her to Prom, and he's refusing. Further, one can interpret that he's saying he won't help her with anything -- ever.

Again, Jackie isn't stupid, and she understands what lies beneath Hyde's statement. She says, “Look Hyde, I know we've had our differences but--"

Hyde says, “Jackie, we've had nothing but differences! In fact, don't we kind of hate each other?”

And here it is: the definition of their relationship in the series up to this point. His line doesn't conflict with what we've seen in the show before this moment. But the fact he asks it as a question means room exists for change.

Jackie responds to his question by bursting into (fake?) tears and shouting, “Yes, but this is the prom!” She leans into his chest and starts (fake?) crying. We're not meant to know whether the tears are real or manipulative or both. But she clearly doesn't "hate" Hyde enough not to consider using him to get to Prom. Moreover, she must've registered the tiny bit of compassion seeping through his selfishness; otherwise, she wouldn't bother appealing to it.

Hyde's discomfort is apparent in his body language, on his face, and in his speech. "Jackie, don't!" he says. "Stop. Stop crying. ... Stop it!" When she doesn't obey his commandment, he says, "Look, do you wanna go to the Prom?”

The seed of compassion in him has borne fruit. Her pain has reached beyond his dislike of her to his fundamental core. The last time she cried to him, in "Ski Trip" (113), his selfish, desperate desires for Donna interfered. He treated Jackie as an annoyance, not a person, and did what he could to get rid of her. But by "Prom Night," he's over Donna, and he finally recognizes Jackie's vulnerability. His instinct is to help her -- not to do nothing or cause further pain -- despite that helping her will cause him further discomfort and potential pain.

This scene is only a few minutes long, but it accomplishes a major character progression for Hyde. The change happens in organic steps. It neither invalidates nor conflicts with what we've seen of his character before but adds another layer to it.

Later, the episode demonstrates how deeply the change goes. Not only does Hyde show Jackie compassion, but he follows through with gusto. He rents a tuxedo and buys a corsage with the little money he has. This confirms his self-sacrificing nature. He dances with her, an activity we know he's not comfortable doing (see "That Disco Episode") -- and it must be doubly uncomfortable for him to dance with Jackie. He tries to console her when she spots Kelso dancing with Pam Macy. He gives Jackie the best Prom experience he can afford, both monetarily and emotionally.

His conception of Jackie continues to shift, as well. His first reaction to her when she meets him on his porch is, "Wow, you look beautiful." The response is one of shock and honesty. In this moment, he doesn't see Jackie as an annoyance but as a person.

Jackie shows him a different side of herself, too. She compliments how he looks with just as much shock and honesty. She offers to go inside his house and meet his mother. She knows his mother is "Gross Edna," the alcoholic lunch lady. She knows his family is poor and that he lives in the poorer part of town -- whereas Jackie's family is rich and lives in the rich part of town -- but her offer is genuine and demonstrates respect.

Even later, the episode exposes Hyde's fundamental core explicitly. Kelso accuses Hyde of betraying him by bringing Jackie to Prom, and Hyde's answer is, "She cried, man!" This line confirms the reason for the shift in his behavior. His next line, though, reveals the mask Hyde's been hiding behind in the series until now:

"Alright, look, you big baby! She wants to be with you, and you want to be with her. So go be with each other ‘cause the whole thing sickens me!”

Before "Prom Night," Hyde is the main person who pushes Kelso to break up with Jackie. Jackie's presence in the basement -- and his life -- frustrates him and is disruptive. She monopolizes Kelso's time and thoughts, whereas pre-Jackie, Kelso seemed to be Hyde's partner in crime (see "The Keg"). But in "Prom Night," Hyde tells Kelso to reconcile with Jackie. Why? Because Kelso and Jackie's happiness has become more important than his own comfort.

This is character development done right.

It's also not forgotten but expanded on. In "The Good Son" (125), Hyde does chores at the Formans' without complaint, in gratitude for them for taking him in. He acts neither entitled nor selfish. His good behavior elicits pride from Red and Kitty, but this causes Eric to feel jealous and insecure. Hyde recognizes Eric's reaction. He also knows he wouldn't be living at the Formans' if Eric hadn't interceded on his behalf.

So when Eric acts out and inadvertently breaks the living room TV, Hyde risks his place at the Formans' by taking responsibility for the destruction. The consequences for him would be far worse than those for Eric. Eric would've been grounded and made to pay for a new TV. But Hyde could've become homeless, dropped out of school, and lost any hope for a good future. Does Hyde consider these possibilities? It's not clear, but he's grateful to Eric for his friendship, and he puts himself in danger to prove that gratitude.

"The Good Son" reconfirms his self-sacrificing nature and shows that selfishness is no longer his driving force.

This change doesn't come out of nowhere. It's caused by the circumstances of his life, by the kindness he's shown by Eric and the Formans, by respecting -- and maybe even relating to -- the pain in Jackie, and by experiencing an unexpected respect from her.

Seasons 2 and 3 deepen and expand Hyde's development even more, but the last fifth of season 1 lays the foundation for that development. Donna's changes in season 8 have no such substantiation. Worse, Hyde's inconsistent characterization in one episode of season 5, a few episodes of season 6, too many episodes of season 7, and all of season 8 is huge a disappointment in light of how consistent his development is starting from "Prom Night" and extending through most of season 5.

msstock87

Lisa, that essay was wonderful and spot on. It really makes me sad how the writers messed them up as a couple and as individuals.

MistyMountainHop

Thank you, Colleen! Yeah, that's the problem when the craft of writing and/or making something that's more than throw-away entertainment isn't a an interest of a TV writer.

But at least enough quality writing is in T7S -- and enough of the connection between DM and MK made it into their characters -- that we can fill in the gaps and alter through fanfic and our imaginations what happened on-screen to what Jackie and Hyde would've actually done.

msstock87

I agree, at least we know what Jackie and Hyde would actually do compared to some of the stuff we got.

MistyMountainHop

Yes. By the end of S7, Hyde made his commitment to Jackie clear. She went off to college, and Hyde continued to build his business and visited her whenever he could. And after she graduated, he proposed.

msstock87

I like the way you think Lisa.

banane

This sounds about right.
So in character for them.

MistyMountainHop

So we're agreed. That's what happened.

msstock87

I think Jackie and Hyde would agree.

MistyMountainHop

I imagine the real (fictional) Jackie and Hyde would've been horrified at what happened to them on-screen.

msstock87

They would be!!!

I love that scene and I love Jackie's dress!