ITA.

It's not even coming down to who you ship, or what couple you like. It happens in so many shows and every time it's disappointing. But OTH used to somehow be so different from other shows, it meant more to me, I found it more relatable and it was really refreshing. I guess it made it all the more disappointing when it became the soap-opera-like circus that it has now.

You see it time and time again with shows that start off amazing and get it right for the first few seasons. Then if ratings drop just a little, they automatically assume that there isn't enough drama, and that adding more drama will make the show more successful - which is untrue. What the viewers want are characters that they can relate to and be invested in, not needless drama and people acting OOC.

It happened with The OC too. Seasons one (especially) and two were great because they had alot of angst and alot of drama, but they also had light hearted banter and alot of comedic value - they found a perfect balance. But then as soon as ratings started to drop the storylines became more and more ridiculous and then they hastily killed Mischa off, and the show was dead for me.

Writers seem to get it spot on for a few seasons, and then they lose it - and it's something that's very frustrating to watch as a viewer. With OTH, the writers are different than those who wrote S1-3 which I think is a big mistake in itself. They needed at least some of those writers who know the characters that they created inside and out - because right now I feel that the fans know the characters better than the writers.

I used to love OTH when it was a story about two brothers. Somehow it seems like we've come too far to ever get back to the innocence and simplicity of that :(

That’s a really good point, and I definitely saw that happen on Dawson’s Creek, where the show changed from a character driven show with situations that people could definitely relate to, to a sensationalistic plot driven show where the characters were made to fit whatever ridiculous story the writers wanted to tell. In the end, Dawson’s Creek became a caricature of itself, and a show that was once hailed as “the next generation of television” became nothing more than a really bad teen soap.

I agree. I know we're on total opposite sides of the couples debate usually, but at this point it doesn't matter.

The show just has a total style and characterisation problem. It's been this way for a long time, starting from when a lot of s1's writers left and going from there. I noticed s1 OTH's writers started writing for Brothers and Sisters, funnily enough that show is critically praised, or was till they fired the creator. Hilariously enough, for not having enough soapy drama.

I, like you, used to connect so well with this show, but I don't even know some of these characters anymore. The thing is it pains me, because this is still my favourite show, despite everything, it really is. I've invested 5 years and I can't stop now. I watch Lost and House and am amazed by the quality of those shows, in every detail. Yet the characters I love from OTH sucked me in and for that reason it will always be my favourite. So that just makes it all the more heartbreaking when I see the characters I love dissappearing and turning into completely different people.

That's an interesting comparison, because some of the people who worked on DC, work on OTH. OTH as it gets further into it's run seems to be suffering the same problems. It's become event driven and the characters are twisted to fit. I remember how much I enjoyed Pacey, then had to cringe at the storyline he had in s6, that was just so totally unlike him. It's like a total betrayal when you have to see your favourites go through that.

You know it's funny, the main reason I didn't watch One Tree Hill was because Dawson's Creek had disappointed me so much and I didn't want to get drawn into another teen oriented show that would end up disappointing me, so I can really relate to the disappointment that so many of you feel about One Tree Hill. Still though, I can also relate to the fact that you don't want to let it go, because I never let go of Dawson's Creek, even though everything that I had loved about it was destroyed, because I invested so much time into writing about it and talking about it, and I know that I'll never be as passionate about any other show as I was about Dawson's Creek, and I'm sure that many of you feel the same way about One Tree Hill.

You want crappy TV shows, watch October Road which was never ever good IMO. I watch it only for Bryan and right now with OR being done, I am crossing my fingers and toes for the return of Jake. I am one of those that will watch a show till the end. I always try to find the good in the bad. I watched 90210 for 6 season after Brenda left and she was my favorite character. Teen dramas have a hard time keeping up with the quality but see unlike some of us here, I don't think season 5 is that horrible. Yes I hate L/P but I like the OTH hour that I spend in front of my TV. It is entertaining. This season I even found myself rewatching the episode on my DVR when I find the time the next day so for me that means that Mark is doing something right. Is is the same OTH I fell in love with? No but I am OK with it. I see OTH as a show that goes between OK season and boring season. I find myself enjoying season 5 a lot more than season 4 that was mostly boring IMO.

I also think season 4 of The OC was one of the best after season 1. Josh was able to rewrite the show in some way that made me fall in love with it all over again. It was never season 1 good but it was better than season 2 and 3 IMO.

OTH is not different from a lot of other teen dramas. I think what is scary is that Mark thinks he is writing the next big thing on TV and it is not the case. His show was and will never be that spectacular. It is good and I have the DVD that I like to watch from time to time but it is not going to go down as the best teen drama in history. OTH did nothing for the TV industry and years from now people that like this show will still remember it but that's about it. Plus, I think OTH will be remembered as the Brooke vs Peyton show just like to this day, Dawson's Creek is known for the infamous triangle.

Wow...so many opinions! I do love that about this fanbase. I feel there is more to OTH than just Peyton and Brooke (even though, I love them too!). It's a good, little show that has made it to a 5th season (maybe 6th, crossing fingers), which a lot shows NEVER see! That says something for the writing, characters, storylines and music (such a big part) right there!

*Dominique*. That's one of the main problems sometimes. Mark thinks he is writing the TV form of Shakespeare, and while I applaud some of his choices and getting this 'little engine that could' show to where it is, he just has too much of an overblown idea of things. The show is entertaining, even as I moan about it, I've never totally despised an episode to the point of thinking I'd never watch again, even the ones I truly hate in relative terms. Just like you say, it's mostly like other teen dramas and years from now it won't be remembered by many. I'll get my DVD's out sometimes and love them, but most won't. It's not revolutionary. At the end of the day though we're the fans, we like it, but sometimes I guess we just have to accept that if we want the best writing in the world we'll have to watch writers who get paid more than CW writers perhaps. The really great ones have progressed to bigger shows. JJ Abrams from Felicity to Alias and Lost for example. I'll accept what I get for what it is, just I'll vent and moan about it sometimes.

Yep definitely :nod:

However I can pick faults in anything. I'll complain and I'll moan and I'll hate the fact that certain things are the way they are. At the end of the day I love it dearly. No other show will even come close. I love my favourites on it, even when I don't like what they're doing, I allow myself to have faith it'll get better.

I look at the storylines and I see where they're going, the route isn't always the best, but I can see the plan at hand and I still like some of it. I know that the writers love the characters and that eventually they stop tearing any of them down and redeem them. Not to everyone but usually to fans of that character.

There's good to be found. I'm just in a negative mood. One thing I will say is that the refreshing time jump to OTH is a lot better than college. That concept splitting everything up totally ruined DC. I applaud OTH for taking that risk. I applaud them for gutsy choices that I don't like this year. So like I said. I'll complain, I'll analyse and I'll dig up all the faults on some days. In the end though, I'll always love this show. Other fans can slate it, but any haters from outside the fan base can beware if they do :lol:.

Just a more positive post for me to finish my work day on.

Paul and Jerry ITA with you both. And Paul it's nice that even though we normally disagree on most things, we agree on what is important about the heart of the show.

I feel like the show is becoming so dependant, and revolving so much around couples, rather than being invested in alot of relationships and friendships. I used to enjoy that there were so many relationships going on that everyone had their fair share of scenes and storylines. Now the characters seem rather one dimensional and only driven by one storyline or one motive.

Another thing that I really hate about the show since S4 and S5 is that it was made to be about Brooke vs. Peyton. I hated how BL broke up so suddely, and LP suddenly happened and that the writers were not tactful at all in the transition. It's that that has cause alot of hostility between the two girls fanbases and now it often comes down to Team Brooke and Team Peyton. The writers were skillful enough in seasons 1 to 3 to carry out the cheating storyline and the love triangle in a way that didn't make me hate any of the characters. You could understand things from everyone's POV, and even though you tended to side with someone more than the other, you were still sympathetic to all parties.

The triangle since S4 has made people who feel strongly for either girl pick a side. And I picked Brooke's for my own reasons. But I used to love the BP friendship, and now I just can't take it seriously. I hate that the fans are manipulated into arguing endlessly over which girl is in the right. S2 I loved them both, felt for them both and that was long after the triangle had began.

Why can't we have a show where main characters are not pitted directly against one another? I really miss enjoying every main character, and feeling like I cared about them all.

You're right, it is nice we can agree on that. :)
Yes and this bothers me because where is the coach Lucas, or music loving Peyton storylines I wanted to see, they're marginalised to 10 minutes of the season. I can bet you feel the same way about Brooke.

It really didn't help that they used the words "Team Brooke" and "Team Peyton" in an episode. That was hilariously idiotic in terms of causing a fan base war. Then there was the Lucas issue again between them with Brooke finding out about the LP kiss, dead mom jokes etc. All fuel to the fire. Although I really like BP this season I have to say.

I hate, hate, hate the "Teams". It's ridicolous and dumb and I was too disappointed to see those words being used in an episode. But I'm glad there's no BLP triangle again though, and there is no longer a need to be on Team Brooke or Team Peyton, instead we should all be on Team Hoes, I think. (=

I was not around this forum last season because I found season 4 boring but did season 4 brought that much passion and discussions? For me, this season is showing that in some weird way (maybe not the best) that Mark is doing something right. At least for me, he is making me want to discuss the episode after I watch it. He makes me feel something with the episode (bad or good emotions).

I think Mark pick the right choice by skipping the college years but OMG, he did miss out on a golden opportunity to write his show in another light and do something truly different.

Triangles will always destroy shows in some way. When it happens, people will pick a side and they will stick to it. The only way it can really work IMO is if both side are equal and not destroyed to make the other look better. Not a lot of shows have been able to do that. The only show for me that was able to do it was Felicity. I was always and will always be a Ben AND Noel fan. Both guys were amazing and in end, I didn't care who Felicity would end up with. She was lucky either way.

OT, but anyway: I really loved Noel and Ben as well. Although I always preferred Ben for Felicity, even though Noel was the obvious better choice. I always thought B/F had much more chemistry, passion and there was some real true love there.

Felicity handled the triangle really well, much MUCH better than OTH and any other show with a triangle ever. I seriously reccommend anyone who hasn't seen the show to buy the dvds and watch one of the best shows ever on TV.

is it just me or are we seeing the same thing as we did in season 1? becuase i mean the same storyline-ish is being played over with just little tweakages here and there and what nots. it's kinda overplayed IMO. i still love the show and LP and everything but serioulsy? move on!

You're right Dominique. Triangles can ruin a show. However the drama of the triangle in this one despite all the fights has provided a hook for this show somehow, caused fans to be passionate for their side and keep watching, even if sometimes people don't like it.

OT - I really like the Jack/Kate/Sawyer thing on Lost and funnily enough that is a JJ show just like Felicity was. It can't be a coincidance can it?

Absoutely, Dominique. As you know, I hated the Season Three love triangle on Dawson's Creek, because it definitely divided the fan base, and I especially hated how Dawson and Andie's characters were destroyed to accomodate a Pacey and Joey paring.