Subject

I am not trying to minimize that. However, it still is not as bad as messing with their private areas. It would be like someone one cutting you yet you charge them with murder.

I googled it and all I can find is articles mentioning the report but not stating or saying what it said.

Again, I did not know this as I have not read the report. All the news wants to say is appropriate touching or molestation. Which could cover a number of things.


I am not saying poor Josh. I am saying that he confessed what he did. Lena confessed what she did. He apologized....and society hates him or seems to. She doesn't even admit she did anything wrong and they still mostly support her.

No...it is I always thought that it was a comedy.

A lot of people do not believe in therapists. Always there have been cases where "professionals" have put ideas into peoples heads. That said I do believe that they love their children and took the best course that they believed would help their son.



He is being persecuted by the media so is his family. I don't agree with what happened in any sense. Still why does he get this kind of treatment when people like Lena admit what they did and no one seems to really care?

Female 18..sleeps with or sexual does things with an 14 year old boy. Lucky boy, he most likely wanted to anyways. She was hot. Nice. He wasn't a victim, he wanted her. What 14 year old boy wouldn't want to have sex with a woman like that. etc....

Male 18...sleeps with or sexually does things with a 14 year old girl. What a monster. He deserves to be in prison. That girl is a victim. How should a grown man do this to a child. etc...

There is a difference in people's minds and in the media.

Ann357

Now that this is all out in public, I think it is appropriate for the media to focus on the failure of the parents. After Josh "self reported" to his parents their actions did not protect 3 or 4 other children. I would like the media to focus on how to protect children and how to help them after abuse. As may be appropriate, hopefully the authorities will ensure that minor Duggar children are safe now.


Subject, Josh was 10 years older than one of his victims...I don't see how that can be anything but WRONG! He sexually abused his siblings. Trying to get into the details of exactly what he did to somehow make it "right" is distasteful to me. The touch was unwanted from all I've read. He did touch a 5 year olds "private area". He was in the wrong. It was sexual abuse!

What Josh did was wrong and sick! I really don't care about Lena at this point. I'm a bit sickened by your arguments while thinking about Josh's victims.

Subject

When did I say that what he did was RIGHT?

I am not trying to make what he did right. I simply do not know what he fully did.

What have I said about his victims!?

I am not agreeing in Josh's defense. I simply said that I do not know fully know what he has done. And argue that the difference between treating a male and a female in similar cases with the media and societies reactions.

I am not a monster. That you seem to be trying to make me. I do not support Josh. I do not support anyone in this matter. However without the information or truth I will not condemn anyone. Personally or publicly.

You seems to think that I am a bad man. Sticking up for all men regardless of what they have done. That is not the case. There are both bad men and women in this world. People who hurt others, who hurt children. Until we see them both as bad people regardless of sex the world will never find true equality. Which is what I want. Which is what I hope everyone wants. For all people to be equal and judged equally for their crimes.

sunnykerr

If "boobs" were really not as intimate to a girl as her private areas, wouldn't we be allowed to walk around topless? I know I find my breasts to be just as integral a part of my private areas as whatever else may be going on below the belt.

Maybe that's harder to understand for boys. But there's a reason women who have mastectomies have a serious mourning process to go through.

Subject No, you're not calling Josh "poor Josh," but saying he's being persecuted is pretty much the same thing. You may not be using the actual words, but that's the connotation of your whole position at present. I mean, don't you usually feel pity for people who are being persecuted?

And you're smart enough to know that the media are playing their usual roles. CNN is all about surviving crime, so they're splitting all the aspects of child molestation. FOX News would be calling for a lynching if these was a "liberal" family; as it is, they're calling for a lawsuit against whomever is responsible for the "leaked" documents. The gossip garbage shows just want a tally of how much the show makes for TLC and which sponsors have backed out. It's all the same old pablum. So they all cut corners on a lot of basic stuff. Like how you explain a teenager looking up (not down) his sister's dress as she's doing laundry.

And obviously things must be different in the world you live, because here it wouldn't matter who was the oldest of a 14-year-old going out with an 18-year-old as both would be legal before the law. The rest would just be personal opinion. Well, if I'm honest, if the girl was older, she'd probably get more guff, since there's a general assumption (justified or not) that girls mature younger than boys. So what would an 18-year-old girl want with a 14-year-old boy? Yeah, that would be problematic than the reverse where I live.

Not all parents "believe" in therapists (obviously, since the Duggars don't), just like not all parents believe in vaccinating, schooling, letting their kids have sleepovers, etc. When there's sexual molestation involved, the entire solution espoused should not be six months of construction work for Josh and nothing at all for everyone else. There must be "Christian psychologists." Because this, believe me, is why people are outraged. This whole show has been the cause of outrage since basically day one because of the perception that the Duggar's parenting style (which apparently combines corporal punishment with a buddy-system) was deemed as tantamount to parental neglect with a healthy dose of cruelty. So this thing with Josh? It's not persecution. It's merely fuel to a pre-existing fire.

Anyway, good luck on finding the report. Perseverance is key, I guess.

GardenSirens

Subject, unfortunately, not everyone wants equality. Many people will hold their dogmas in their hands while hiding in a corner, snapping at anyone who out reaches their hand to help. This Duggar thing is shining an ugly light on so called "perfect families" with those specific religious values...I honestly hope he did get therapy and has changed. I don't believe in judging someone who is willing to change themselves (not supporting what he did because that's messed up but I can see where teens make stupider choices than adults.)

Ann357

I did not call u a monster and I am not making a unilateral judgement on your character. I am upset by your post that seem to split hairs about what constitutes abuse. Talking about it in terms of Flowers in the the Attic or minimizing it is inappropriate to me. The info on the Duggar case seem pretty ease to find.

The world is full of inequality and striving for all to be treated equal is great.

Subject

That's my point the entire top-free movement of making it legal for a woman to be topless any where a man can be is based on the their statement that female breasts are not sexual.

Really that entire movement confuses me. They want the right for women to be allowed topless. Yet most women wouldn't even do it. It kind of reminds me of children, who don't really want to do something they just want to know that they can.

Not to mention the impact it could have with underage girls. Especially in regards to child pornography in an age where cameras are everywhere.

I brought this up in the Feminist thread on the board. Just never got a response.

He and his family are being persecuted. If they were not than we would have seen the same outrage over what Lena Duhnam had done to her sister. Because the family is different people are going after them.

I have no pity for them. I just don't like hypocrisy between the Dunham and Duggar situations.

Here in this state the age of consent is 16. Still, I was mostly talking about soceity and law sees and treats men and women differently for committing the same crimes.

Well, what would a 18 year old man want with a 14 year old girl? He is obviously more mature than she is. Just as the 18 year old girl would be. I understand the point you are making. It just seems that while and 18 year old female with a 14 year old boy would seems strange. It also kind of implies that an 18 year old man with a 14 year old girl is normal.


According to this timeline

The parents went to the police, after that they sought guidance from their church and sought what they believed to be efficient treatment for their son.



per·se·cu·tion/ˌpərsəˈkyo͞oSH(ə)n/
noun
hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs


I found it this morning. I also found an interview with the sisters.

Jill and Jessa on furor over brother Josh Duggar's past abuse: 'We're victims'


There is a difference between some inappropriate touching by children and abuse. After reading the report it's clear that this is was abuse.

I only mention Flowers in the Attic due to both the religious aspect at play here and the fact that when isolated a person could develop some level of attraction towards a member of their family.

In course between this and the Dunham situation. I see this more about a strange family being persecuted because their belief system. Dunham did what she did there was little to almost no outrage IMO. Now Josh Duggar did what he did and the entire family is being blasted in the media.

sunnykerr

Your idea that men have it worse than women in society notwithstanding, I don’t believe that Josh Duggar at any age (let alone 15) believed that boobs weren't as bad at private parts. This is the family that believes that full-frontal hugging between the genders is sinful. It's the family that believes that the proper attire for swimming is a combo of a padded wetsuit top and a pair of jeans.

Whatever else may be going on in the world, the whole point of the Duggars' TV show is that they believe in a far more conservative view of things. After all, this is the same family who participated in robocalls equating marriage equality for gays with pedophiles.

The age of consent here is also 16, but there are built-in caveats from 14 on up (basically, a 5-year age difference is acceptable) since 14 is the age at which a person can legally obtain an abortion without any other person's say-so. And 18-year-olds going out with 14-year-olds is not the norm. But it is legal. If you want social generalizations, here it's also the norm that, in a heterosexual relationsip, the male partner is older. Anyway, the point of laws is to say that, even if something isn't the norm, it's still acceptable.

How in the world do you go from me suggesting they could have availed themselves of a psychologist they would have been comfortable with to suggesting I'm persecuting them? I have zero impact on their lives. If anything, that was me suggesting that they should have been allowed to make choices they were comfortable with within the confines of the law. That’s not persecution.

Having now read the police report, you now know that the police were notified when the Oprah Winfrey Show and a separate woman raised the alarm years after the fact. Meaning that the statute of limitations had expired not only on Josh facing legal consequences for his actions, but the parents too for bringing him back into the house after having been made repeatedly aware that he was molesting his sisters.

Because the Duggars themselves never approached the police. As you say, after seeking counsel from Gothard church elders, they went to see a ranger-type friend of theirs (now serving 53 years in prison for child pornography, not that they could have known that) - not the police, at the police station, as one does when reporting a crime. They went to see a "like-minded" person who happened to work in law enforcement.

For sure, the two sisters who were compelled (by their parents? TLC? FOX News?) to reveal their identity as victims have been victimized. But, having now read the police report, you're also aware that this was not the doing of any police department or of any reporter ahead of the interview they granted. It is completely disgusting to me that they were made to do that when the report revealed nothing of their identity.

And I can't be remembering Flowers in the Attic correctly, because I don't remember religion being brought up in it. At any rate, I think it'd be better for everyone if we let the comparison drop.

And you’ll be happy to hear that Sarah Palin shares your views of the situation as it relates to Lena Dunham. I do wish you had mentioned that Lena Dunham was revealing her abuse of her sister as evidence of the trauma her own sexual abuse had left in her. It doesn’t excuse her behaviour, but it also supports my perception that comparing Duggars and Dunham is a pointless exercise in looking desperately for a double-standard where there is none.

Subject

I never said that men have it worse in society than women. Only that here in the US men do have it worse when being accused of a sexual crime. Such as abuse, rape, assualt, ect. When men and women commit the sames acts the men often receive harsher punishments.

I believe I brought up an example before about and 8 year old boy being arrested because his 14 year old baby sitter had him touch her boobs. Kid told his mother she called the police...and they arrested the 8 year old.

I never said you were persecuting them. Only that they are being persecuted in general. Not specifically you but by the media, and most the news and society it seems.

Did you read the timeline link I posted? Here is another timeline from a different source here

The father went to the police or at least a police officer. The fact that this person did not report it officially is that individual person's fault. After that they went to their church. Sought him what they deemed to be treatment. ect...ect...

My point is that the first thing the parent did when learning of this was talk to someone in law enforcement then their church. Should it have been handled better yes. Of course it should have.

I'm sorry but where was it said they were forced to give the interview or statement? Maybe they wanted to speak up because their entire family is being dragged through the mud.

The Grandmother who imprisoned the children was deeply religious. I wasn't comparing it to the current situation. I was just stating the before reading the report that sometimes siblings can grow to have an attraction to each other. Due to whatever circumstances. Again, this was before I read the report.


I don't really care about Sarah Palin... so

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Are you saying that Lena Dunham was abused as a child?

Lena Dunham – Is she a sex offender?

If what your saying is that in order to compare the two Josh Duggar at 17 would have had to masturbate in bed with his elven year old sister there. In order to compare the cases at all?

The doubled standard goes into the fact that people still don't label what Lena did as sexual abuse. Where as even before the report came out Duggar was labeled right away.

What I want to say about the Duggar case is this. If a 15 year old beat up his younger sibling in a bloody way. That would be assault. Yet we wouldn't ask that the parents contact the police about it. (This is not comparing assault and abuse, just in relation to the fact that both are criminal.)

In this case The Duggar family went to a person in law enforcement. Then they went to their church. They did what they believed to be good treatment/punishment for their son. While protecting their daughters.

If anyone is at fault for not reporting this right away IMO it would be the person in law enforcement that the father first went to. That person had an automatic responsibility of having to report the incident.

Choosing between your children is a hard decision. The Duggars did what they felt was best. While most here and in the media seem to think they should have automatically threw their son into the system.

sunnykerr

Shame on me for not having learned my lesson the first time we had a debate.

If you're gonna keep saying or imply pretty blatantly one thing and then come back with "but I never used those words" and if you're gonna keep taking what others say and split it up to the point where it loses all meaning, there's really no point in trying to talk about the issues, or police reports or the difference between persecution and outrage.

And the Grandmother from the Flowers in the Attic was a nutcase. Calling her deeply religious is an insult to deeply religious the world over.

And are you telling me you've been accusing Lena Dunham of saying something without having read her book? You might to think about why that would be acceptable for anyone to do.

Subject

You seem to always do this... I say something ...you tell me I'm twisting words...and you stop talking about it. So basically... your saying "nah-nah-nah... I'm not listening to you." ... Alright then.....

See ya!


First of all where did I imply something about you persecuting anyone? All I said was that they were being persecuted. The public can be outraged at Josh for he did and for the lack of going to the police. Still the family is being persecuted. The situation is not only about Josh now but about the entire family. All because they do things they most consider strange or wrong.

Perhaps it is about the fact that you said "they were made to do that" about the sisters giving their interviews. Yet, as I said perhaps they were not forced. Just wanted to come out and tell their opinions to stop the way their family is being treated.

You also need to stop making assumptions that I am implying things. I didn't know you read minds... neat trick

I guess agree to split hairs because her being deeply religious. Which is what she was to the point of crazy abuse of her grandchildren. It is not an insult to anyone. As everyone can be deeply religious because still to each person their own understanding of their religion can differ. Which is why some Christians have no problem with gay people and others think they should die and burn in hell.

I'm not going to agrue about a fictional character anymore..

I read what she wrote in regards to her sister. I do not need to read the entire thing. To understand that what she did was wrong. You saying I need to read it is a sad attempt on your part to "help" me understand her more to excuse what she did because she was a victim once herself. Boo-Hoo

Maybe Josh was abused as a child. He just hasn't said so yet. I guess that gives him a free pass. Thank you for solving all the problems of the world. No one is accountable for their actions someone did something bad to thing once.

In the world of feminism....

Miss Piggy Received an Award for Being a Better Feminist Than Most Humans

I love how in piece about feminism, a group for equality they bash Meninists and say that women who don't like feminism need to be educated. So in other words, if you are not a feminist and don't agree with them. Then you must be stupid. Thanks tv guide....

i never learn

do you have to be so disgustingly graphic in here? you legit have no filter when talking about pedophilia and it's disturbing.

Subject

I don't see how the word masturbate is very graphic. I used the term private areas before in regards to a sexual abuse case.. I thought that was more appropriate then saying the official term for the body part.

I don't see how pedophilia relates to any of this. Perhaps you should look up the word for a better understanding. You know what I'll do it for you.


Pedophilia or paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children, generally age 11 years or younger. As a medical diagnosis, specific criteria for the disorder extend the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13. A person who is diagnosed with pedophilia must be at least 16 years of age, but adolescents must be at least five years older than the prepubescent child for the attraction to be diagnosed as pedophilia.

i never learn

why can't you just stop? it's a pg-13 forum and you're just going on and on and describing situations that could possibly be triggers for other posters. it's like you don't care. you just want to be right and that's it.

Subject

"Triggers" is what you choose to use. I mean how is that word even a trigger? Still trigger does not take away the right of free speech. I know that this form is PG-13. I'm sure most 13 year olds know that word.

Well, since I believe myself to be right yes. Still I am not trying to cause any problems merely stating my opinions on the issues we were talking about.

If you are so worried about triggering people perhaps no news should ever be discussed. It could trigger memories of abuse, violence, rape,murder, jay walking..pet death..., human death...etc.


Also I don't see how I was going on. I mentioned one example in relation to another once using that (as you say) graphic word.