[sunnykerr]

I can understand how it happened.

After 9/11, it's understandable that there was panic.

There had been intelligence communicating basically the whole plot of what happened on that day and, basically, the intelligence community failed.

So, what do you do when that happens, you swing in the other direction and go completely extreme in your measures.

But whatever that accomplished, which we'll never know but that doesn't mean nothing was accomplished, it is time to come back to a more measured and targeted practice.

Spying will likely always be a fact of life, but you can't have a democracy and treat your citizens that way.

Yes, we all give up some of our rights in the name of national security, but what we give up should have meaning. National security shouldn't be a blanket reason for whatever violation of privacy seems okay to whomever is in front of the machine at the time.

[GardenSirens]

Yeah, people need to realize NSA has been spying on us for as long as I've been alive and certainly longer. People who think theyr'e safe using the internet make me LOL out loud. SURE, they should be and most are...because they don't have anything to hide. But if the gov't wanted to see something, they have the technology, power and clearance to do so. I hope it changes. I have private browsing on my computer and phone and hope it stops it.

[quaist]

They're even speculating now that the NSA can get access to computers without an internet connection through some kind of bug that's operating with radio waves.

I can see how this is yet another infringement on people's privacy, but I don't think there'll be any serious changes to the NSA's surveillance practices.

Obama can probably say all he wants publicly.

[GardenSirens]

I just operate on the mentality of "I have nothing to hide" and just hope for the best. Ignorance, yes, but makes me sleep at night

[sunnykerr]

Well, it's obviously not done yet, but I think Obama's trying to move things in the right direction:

Obama orders curbs on NSA data use President Barack Obama has ordered curbs on the use of bulk data collected by US intelligence agencies, saying civil liberties must be respected. Mr Obama said such data had prevented terror attacks at home and abroad, but that in tackling threats the government risked over-reaching itself. However civil liberties groups have said the changes do not go far enough. The announcement follows widespread anger after leaks revealed the full extent of US surveillance operations. The leaked documents revealed that the US collects massive amounts of electronic data from communications of private individuals around the world, and has spied on foreign leaders. The latest revelations claim that US agencies have collected and stored almost 200 million text messages every day across the globe, according to the Guardian newspaper and Channel 4 News. 'Rights are protected' In his much-anticipated speech at the Department of Justice, Mr Obama said he would not apologise for the effectiveness of US intelligence operations, and insisted nothing he had seen indicated they had sought to break the law. It was necessary for the US to continue collecting large amounts of data, he said, but acknowledged "the potential of abuse". "The reforms I'm proposing today should give the American people greater confidence that their rights are being protected, even as our intelligence and law enforcement agencies maintain the tools they need to keep us safe," he said. Details of the times, numbers and durations of phone calls - known as metadata - are currently collected and held by the National Security Agency (NSA). But Mr Obama said he was ending that system "as it currently exists". He has asked the attorney general and the intelligence community to draw up plans for metadata to be held by a third party, with the NSA requiring legal permission to access them. A panel of independent privacy advocates would also sit on the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) which has responsibility for giving permission for mass surveillance programmes. Mr Obama offered assurances to non-Americans, saying people around the world "should know that the United States is not spying on ordinary people who don't threaten our national security". "This applies to foreign leaders as well," he said, promising that from now on the US "will not monitor the communications of heads of state and government of our close friends and allies". It was revealed last year that the US had spied on friendly foreign leaders, including on the personal mobile of German Chancellor Angela Merkel. A spokesman for Mrs Merkel said on Friday many Germans were "rightfully concerned" by spying reports and that the rights of foreign citizens must be respected. He said Berlin would continue to hold confidential talks with the US on "a new clear basis for co-operation amongst intelligence agencies". Mr Obama was also critical of nations he said "feign surprise" over US snooping but "privately acknowledge that America has special responsibilities as the world's only superpower" and have used the information gathered for their own purposes. 'Music on Titanic' Edward Snowden, the former NSA contractor at the who leaked the information, is wanted in the US for espionage and is now living in exile in Russia. Civil liberties groups see him as a hero for exposing what they see as official intrusions into private lives, but many Americans believe he has endangered American lives. The president said he would not "dwell on Mr Snowden's actions or his motivations", but warned that the "sensational way" the NSA details had come to light had potentially jeopardised US operations "for years to come". Mr Obama's reforms were welcomed as progress in some quarters, but others argued they did not go far enough in protecting individuals. "President Obama's surveillance adjustments will be remembered as music on the Titanic unless his administration adopts deeper reforms," said Steven W. Hawkins, executive director of Amnesty International USA. "Shifting the storage of information does not address the fundamental problem: the collection of mass personal data in the first place," he said in a statement.

Between the fear that it's not going far enough and the fact that it's not really in place yet, I suppose there will be many who feel like this is a whole lot of talk and nothing to show for it.

But it validates Snowden's arguments, doesn't it?

Again, not the way he went about it, but what he was saying is turning out to be supported by the facts.

[GardenSirens]

I like Obama's order on the NSA today. Whether it's truthful, effective or moot remains to be seen. A for effort so far, though! Go Obama!

[sunnykerr]

It was a good promise.

Now let see if his administration can deliver.

[quaist]

I've not read much on it to be able to judge, but telling from today's headlines alone people seem to think that what he said was just good rhetoric and realistically seen... not much.

[sunnykerr]

Anything any government announces ever can only be a PR campaign.

It's when it's put into actions that you see the reality.

So I feel like we need to wait and see.

It's a nice promise he's made. Let's see if his administration (or, indeed, the following ones since we're fast approaching the end of Obama's term) can deliver.

[GardenSirens]

Of course it was rhetoric. Laws and actions dont happen when addressing the public. they happen behind closed doors with expensive pens, lol. While we do have to wait and see, the public has a really good thing going now where we can pressure politicians into action. It's happening almost too much.

[quaist]

I must confess I'm really glad once the media are finally through with this recurring theme -- surveillance (paranoia, oftentimes) -- and move on to more pressing things.

[sunnykerr]

Seems to me they waited long enough to deal with this issue.

[GardenSirens]

Progress only really seems to happen once the cameras are focused elsewhere. Pressure from the media just really seems to distort everything.

[quaist]

Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post) Seems to me they waited long enough to deal with this issue.

I'm not sure this issue will ever genuinely be dealt with. Far from it.

I just read how Obama's got to take a tent, especially designed to deter spying, with him on all foreign trips. For all we know, he frequently uses this when traveling to Europe as well, not just when meeting up with world leaders where you probably might expect affronts like bugging the president's hotel room. So it's obvious how almost each and every country does its snooping, no matter whether the target's friend or foe. If the technology is there and working, it will be used.

Of course we were discussing the surveillance of ordinary citizens, but I still don't see any harm in the NSA collecting metadata and occassionally reading in on my innocent email correspondence with friends. As long as there are no abundant abuses that exceed the inevitable 'failure rate' every system has, I can't seem to get the whole fuzz they're making about this.

[sunnykerr]

I didn't express myself correctly.

What I should have said is that it took them long enough to even acknowledge that this was going on.

I agree, I don't think there will ever be a world in which we don't spy on one another, as countries and political entities.

But at least we seem to be done pretending it's not happening.