News & Politics - Gays in the Military

Lexis · 01-02-2007, 12:38 PM

This article was highlighted on the Daily Kos and I thought it was interesting. As the article mentions, lots of other armed forces allow gay people into the military with no reported problems. Its interesting if this debate did get going again in America - I read about the first go round during Clinton's first months in office and it was certainly complicated.

Quote:

TWO weeks ago, President Bush called for a long-term plan to increase the size of the armed forces. As our leaders consider various options for carrying out Mr. Bush’s vision, one issue likely to generate fierce debate is “don’t ask, don’t tell,” the policy that bars openly gay service members from the military. Indeed, leaders in the new Congress are planning to re-introduce a bill to repeal the policy next year.

As was the case in 1993 — the last time the American people thoroughly debated the question of whether openly gay men and lesbians should serve in the military — the issue will give rise to passionate feelings on both sides. The debate must be conducted with sensitivity, but it must also consider the evidence that has emerged over the last 14 years.

When I was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, I supported the current policy because I believed that implementing a change in the rules at that time would have been too burdensome for our troops and commanders. I still believe that to have been true. The concern among many in the military was that given the longstanding view that homosexuality was incompatible with service, letting people who were openly gay serve would lower morale, harm recruitment and undermine unit cohesion.

In the early 1990s, large numbers of military personnel were opposed to letting openly gay men and lesbians serve. President Bill Clinton, who promised to lift the ban during his campaign, was overwhelmed by the strength of the opposition, which threatened to overturn any executive action he might take. The compromise that came to be known as “don’t ask, don’t tell” was thus a useful speed bump that allowed temperatures to cool for a period of time while the culture continued to evolve.

The question before us now is whether enough time has gone by to give this policy serious reconsideration. Much evidence suggests that it has.

Last year I held a number of meetings with gay soldiers and marines, including some with combat experience in Iraq, and an openly gay senior sailor who was serving effectively as a member of a nuclear submarine crew. These conversations showed me just how much the military has changed, and that gays and lesbians can be accepted by their peers.

This perception is supported by a new Zogby poll of more than 500 service members returning from Afghanistan and Iraq, three quarters of whom said they were comfortable interacting with gay people. And 24 foreign nations, including Israel, Britain and other allies in the fight against terrorism, let gays serve openly, with none reporting morale or recruitment problems.

I now believe that if gay men and lesbians served openly in the United States military, they would not undermine the efficacy of the armed forces. Our military has been stretched thin by our deployments in the Middle East, and we must welcome the service of any American who is willing and able to do the job.

...

John M. Shalikashvili, a retired army general, was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff from 1993 to 1997.

Second Thoughts on Gays in the Military - New York Times

What do you think? Should gays be allowed into the military? Why/Why not?

**Enigma** · 01-02-2007, 12:51 PM

I don't think it's a matter of should gays be allowed in the military. The fact is there already are gays in the military and have been for years. I don't think it makes one bit of difference.

I guess the issue is really whether someone can or should be allowed to be openly gay in the military. I can see both sides of the issue, but honestly I don't think allowing people to be openly gay in the military will change anything, so I don't understand the opposition.

Jacob1983 · 01-02-2007, 04:27 PM

Who freakin cares?

Lexis · 01-02-2007, 04:59 PM

Apparently, the military of the United Statest.

Jacob1983 · 01-02-2007, 05:09 PM

I'm just saying who honestly cares about this debate. The military needs all the men and women it can get and who cares if they are gay or not. However, I do support the saying "don't ask, don't tell" mainly because I could see how open homosexuality might be a distraction.

TheAngel · 01-02-2007, 06:06 PM

I think there's a lot of violent sentiment towards openly gay men in the military and a couple sensitivity courses isn't going to fix it. To be honest, what does it matter if you're gay or straight. If I was in the military I'd be fine never knowing the sexual orientation of any of my friends. But in the military you have a lot of ignorant, biggoted young men that might not be as accepting as some people and might be very violent. I think it's safer for it to be kept quiet. I mean, I'm not running down the street telling everyone I'm straight, why should someone be telling everyone they're gay?
To each their own of course, and anyone willing to fight for my country has my respect. But who cares if you're gay, straight, both, or neither.

***Jerry D*** · 01-02-2007, 06:18 PM

I don't think that a person's sexual orientation should have any bearing whatsover on whether they can serve in the military, and I think that the "don't ask, don't tell" policy is a ridiculous concept.

Lexis · 01-02-2007, 06:33 PM

I'm not sure its a matter of people declaring "I'm gay" but more a question of how much should someone hide? I assume that military people talk about their families or their life at home etc. If the "don't ask, don't tell" policy exists doesn't that imply that there's a whole area of somebody's life that they are forced to hide from those they work with?

elisheva · 01-02-2007, 06:41 PM

Jacob - Distracting how?

I think TheAngel is right that a gay individual in the military will come up against some violently homophobic people. I don't think the answer is to hide, though; I think there should be a very strongly enforced policy of tolerance, if a supervisor or commander or whatever notices soliders harassing another over orientation, the supervisor should deal very strongly with that situation. And if the supervisor himself is homophobic, the next-level boss should deal with that person.

Jacob1983 · 01-02-2007, 06:59 PM

Homosexuals in the military will not have to worry about those violent homophobic people as long as they don't talk or express their sexual orientation. Honestly, if I was in the military I wouldn't care if my fellow soldiers and troops were gay or straight. As long as they don't mess with me then there is no problem in my opinion.

It's distracting because let's face it , our military men have this stereotype as being strong traditional straight men.

elisheva · 01-02-2007, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob1983 (View Post)

Homosexuals in the military will not have to worry about those violent homophobic people as long as they don't talk or express their sexual orientation. Honestly, if I was in the military I wouldn't care if my fellow soldiers and troops were gay or straight. As long as they don't mess with me then there is no problem in my opinion.

It's distracting because let's face it , our military men have this stereotype as being strong traditional straight men.

As long as they don't express their sexual orientation? What does that mean? I don't get it - do you think openly gay soliders would start coming on to their traditional straight buddies? Or should they not be allowed to talk about their boyfriend back home?

TheAngel · 01-02-2007, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elisheva (View Post)

Jacob - Distracting how?

I think TheAngel is right that a gay individual in the military will come up against some violently homophobic people. I don't think the answer is to hide, though; I think there should be a very strongly enforced policy of tolerance, if a supervisor or commander or whatever notices soliders harassing another over orientation, the supervisor should deal very strongly with that situation. And if the supervisor himself is homophobic, the next-level boss should deal with that person.

That's like sayng, because there's a policy about sexual harrasment women aren't harassed. It's obvious that you've never been in a military setting because harassment of women by male soldiers is very common despite policies against it. Women are being raped in iraq and making complaints when they come home with nothing done to the soldiers responsible. Why would it be any different for gay men?

migamoo · 01-02-2007, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob1983 (View Post)

Homosexuals in the military will not have to worry about those violent homophobic people as long as they don't talk or express their sexual orientation.

Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? I mean, really? If a gay person cannot talk openly about their orientation, than a straight person either. Would you say that is fair? No, it isn't.

Quote:

As long as they don't mess with me then there is no problem in my opinion.

"Mess" with you how? Come on to you? Are you afraid of a gay man coming on to you or do you just not want it? I can understand the unwantedness but being afraid is something totally different. What about a female soldier? Would you want them coming on to you or not?

Quote:

It's distracting because let's face it , our military men have this stereotype as being strong traditional straight men.

Being gay is not distracting. It's like making an mountain out of a mole hill. Let's think of it this way, the military didn't use to let African Americans in the same barracks as whites, which is discrimination. If you aren't going to let gay men and women be open about themselves in every way, it's still discrimination.

elisheva · 01-02-2007, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAngel (View Post)

That's like sayng, because there's a policy about sexual harrasment women aren't harassed. It's obvious that you've never been in a military setting because harassment of women by male soldiers is very common despite policies against it. Women are being raped in iraq and making complaints when they come home with nothing done to the soldiers responsible. Why would it be any different for gay men?

Nope, that's not what I'm saying. To use your example, what I'm saying is that the appropriate response to violence against women in the military is not to ban women from the military. The answer is also not just, as you say, to hold a few "sensitivity courses" - but that should be part of it, and there should be a serious effort to push tolerance and enforce tolerance in the military. With harsh punishments for people who harass others. There's a middle ground between half an hour of sensitivity training and "don't ask, don't tell."

Jacob1983 · 01-03-2007, 01:53 AM

Hold on, don't try to paint or label as a homophobe. It sucks when gay soldiers get abused or harassed simply because of their sexual orientation. It also sucks when female soldiers are abused and harassed because of their gender. However, you have to realize that the whole concept of the military has traditionally been straight men. I know that sucks and it's not politically correct but that's how it was for a long time.

I do think that openly homosexuality would be a distraction. Do you honestly think that straight soldiers and troops want to hear about gay soldiers talking about their sex lives and relationships?

I'm one of those people that doesn't like it when anyone gets up in my space and face. It doesn't matter what color, gender, religion, or sexual orientation you are. If you get in my space and face, I have a problem with it. I have anxiety issues.

Why does it make me a bad person for me to not want a guy to come onto me?

If I was a soldier, I would try to have more of an emotionless view on things. I definately wouldn't be going around sleeping with every female soldier I saw. I'm pretty sure you can get in trouble for that.


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