Jaime Bee

I still only really enjoy the Spuffy stuff and what ties into it though those Seasons.

I just see now that other stuff was thought out Season 6. There are other ok things. I mean it was nice to see Xander/Anya have more than comic relief and Willow as The Big Bad was Ok.

Night Nymph

Don't forget the inadvertant but still real pain Willow caused Buffy (with the less inadvertant help of Xander) by bringing Angel's soul back at the last minute, just before Buffy had to send him to hell. You would think Willow would've learned something from that debacle, but noooo...

I really would've liked to have seen Buffy decide to kick Willow's ass in season 6 (with Spike's help) rather than trying to "save" her even until the very end of the season - getting away with trying to end the world "like it was nothing" is right. Not to mention killing Warren, trying to kill Dawn (and this didn't piss Buffy off why?), and trying to kill Giles. Can you imagine the Scoobies forgiving Buffy so easily? Um, guess not considering Empty Places and even earlier with Dead Man's Party.

And I understand what you are saying about Willow being in pain, callace, but Buffy was in pain as well at the beginning of season 3, and she got very little if any sympathy in Dead Man's Party. And while Buffy did run away, she didn't blame Willow or try to destroy the world.


And I guess I am alone now in thinking that the plot/writing in season 5 was better planned than season 6. That's okay, I don't mind being alone in that opinion. I still say that the beginning of season 6 was brilliant, but that things got a bit stagnant after Smashed. Dead Things was great, but Gone, Doublemeat Palace and Older and Far Away through Hell's Bell's just didn't appeal to me as much as the middle episodes of season 5 (Checkpoint, Blood Ties, Crush, Forever, Intervention, even Tough Love and Spiral - I'll admit Weight of the World was bad, but not worse than Doublemeat Palace or As You Were). I wasn't even a fan of Normal Again, because some of it seemed to contradict scenes we had just seen in Hell's Bells. Except for the Spuffy parts - which in themselves sometimes became repetitive for me and were done best in Dead Things - ah, I've said all this before so, I'll try to sum it up with....

Season 6 had great angst, it was daring, it was complex, and it was sexy, but at the same time for me the conflict was mostly laid out by Wrecked and then the characters stagnated, repeating the same mistakes and not communicating until the big finale. This might be realistic, but it isn't my favorite kind of plot. I find it frustrating and nerve-wracking. I don't enjoy being put through the wringer.

While I greatly disliked The Body, I liked that Buffy and Spike especially changed throughout season 5. They learned things, and their characters grew. I also preferred Glory/Ben and how they compared and contrasted nicely with Buffy/Dawn to the more realistic but less relevant Warren and the gang who mostly just seemed to be there to heap yet more problems onto Buffy. Warren was creepy and misogynistic, but his character wasn't very complex to me beyond that, Andrew was... well Andrew, and I'm not sure what happened to Jonathan who until what happened to him in season 6 was one of my favorite minor characters.

Ben though, I found interesting. Like Buffy, he had a fate that wasn't his choice thrust on him, and I liked seeing how he dealt with that verses how Buffy did, and how we slowly learned that he wasn't the unknowing, innocent bystander he at first appeared to be. Again character evloution/development. There was some with Warren, I'll admit, but not as much since we pretty much knew the creepy, misogynist thing after I Was Made to Love You.

I enjoy repeat viewings of early season 6 - definitely - up until Smashed. In fact these 9 episodes are my favorite stretch of episodes in the entire series, I think, (Followed closely by the first 9 episodes of season 7), but for whole season repeat viewing - season 5 all the way. The beginning wasn't as strong as that of season 6 by a longshot, I'll admit (though OoMM through Fool For Love was pretty great), but the middle and the end made up for it for me (I disliked Grave, while I enjoyed The Gift).

Heck due to the entertainment factor of Pangs through The I in Team, the underrated WtWTA, and the greatness of The Yoko Factor and Primeval, I'd even throw in season 4 next after season 5 for total season viewing (I find season 4 to be very underrated myself). *ducks in case of flying objects*. And I say this with experience - in addition to multiple rerun veiwings, I watch Buffy once a week online with a small group, and we've been through almost every season together (except 7, due to circumstances beyond our control, i.e. some people didn't have that DVD set) at least once, some seasons more than once, with selected episodes viewed on special occasions.

And it isn't that I wanted fluffy Spuffy in season 6 either, though when I say that I loved season 6 up until Smashed, that is usually what people assume.

Jaime Bee

I think I still have to go with Season 5. So much of it builds up to Season 6. I love that. Both Seasons go together.

I've already said why I enjoy it So much. Season 6 even though was well thought out too. I still mostly just love the Spuffy. Season 5 there are just more things I enjoy as a whole.

I'm not sure what order for the rest. Season 1 and Season 4 are my least favorites. Season 4 though has Spike So I guess I have to go with Season 1 being my least favorite. I think Season 2 is next. Spike and Angelus Arc are better to me than the First. So down here is the order.

Buffy Show General
Season 5
Season 6
Season 2
Season 7
Season 3
Season 4
Season 1

Spuffyness
Season 6
Season 7
Season 5
Season 4
Season 2
Season 3 just cause of LW counts as Spuffy.

Season 1 had none.

I think though it was better that Spike wasn't in it cause he just seemed to show up at the best time.

Aww Spuffy.

Crack of Doom

Uh... ok outside of Pangs none of those episodes would be my top picks for season 4 lol. Not even close. Other than Restless, the rest of season 4 is just a whole mess of mediocrity. Even Something Blue, like most Spuffies I covet the episode, but I can admit it's mainly due to shipper bias. And there certainly wasn't enough Spuffy in S4 for my liking, but way too much Riley. Because of him and the stupid Initiative plot I had to bail on the show for a little while. S4 is never going to rank that highly with me.

Back to season 6 even if I didn't think the writing in season 6 was up to par with the previous seasons (which I do), my love for it isn't entirely objective or rational. I'll always remember that season as the time when my emotional investment in the show became really unhealthy for me. I went through bouts of extreme joy, misery, anger. At the time I hated what it was doing to me but now I can't help look back on the season fondly because I'll probably never feel that way about a show again. It's probably better for me this way but I kind of miss having my happiness being that dependent on a tv show.

A lot like my manic depressive emotions while watching season 6 for the first time, S6 itself is a season with some really high highs and low lows while S4 may be more consistent but not as gripping to me.

Oh and it seems I can even enjoy some of the much hated episodes from S6 - Wrecked (I love it just as much for the Willow parts as I do the Spuffy. So there! ), Gone, Doublemeat Palace, Older and Far Away. It doesn't seem to bore me or piss me off as much as it does everyone else hehe. I also don't agree that Dead Things was the only well written episode from the latter half of the season. I thought Normal Again, Seeing Red, and yes even Villains were all pretty great too. There are only three episodes I would be fine with never having to watch them again - As You Were and the finale episodes. But the unremarkable end to the season doesn't undo all the IMO yummy goodness that came before it.

Might as well do a whole episode ranking of S6 lol.

1. Dead Things No Contest. Loves it HARD.
2. After Life how do they do it? "147 Days." "Every night I save you." Somehow even with my low threshold for sap I still didn't feel like to barf. The Gift didn't manage to do that. "I may be a monster but you treat me like a man." Spike sobbing and breaking down. I could not take it. I felt like to cringe and embarrassed by the whole thing. *slaps wrist* Bad Spuffy fan! Haha.
3. OMWF
4. Wrecked Yes, Wrecked. I refuse to be ashamed.
5. Seeing Red
6. Smashed
7. Villains
8. Life Serial
9. Tabula Rasa
10. Normal Again
11. Hells Bells
12. Entropy
13. Bargaining
14. Flooded
15. Doublemeat Palace I actually feel bad about ranking it so low! That's how much I love the majority of eps from this season. I really wasn't kidding.
16. All the Way
17. Older and Far Away
18. Gone
19. Bargaining II The dragged out ending scene with Buffy/Dawn kind of killed it for me. By the time the tower started falling I already felt like to scream at Buffy "Oh just jump already!" to stop Dawn's blather.
20. Two to Go
21. Grave I um actually can't remember which one sucked more between TTG or Grave, but I'm pretty sure they both did.
22. As You Were

Jaime Bee

Scythe

I loved that she slapped him it's somehow more intimate than a punch

Jaime Bee

I haven't even thought of that.

wilywiccan

Jaime, why didn't you bring those Spuffy pics to the Couples thread? They are great.

**plans on actually reading the posts when I come back**

Night Nymph

I liked the under the surface Spuffy stuff of season 4 - the I hate you, but somehow can't keep from teasing you and/or making innuendos.

I actually didn't get Restless. I think I'm obtuse bordering on Teutonic.

But I do get what you are saying about season 4 being more consistent but not as gripping as compared to season 6. I agree, but when it comes to whole season arc veiwing, I like consistency.

I'm surprised that you didn't like Hush, though. I thought that episode was well balanced as to humor and creepiness. I enjoyed much of the humor of season 4. I don't necessarily want angst all the time, and season 4 did a good job with the humor. Even the Spike/Anya stuff in WtWTA - "You're not even bumpy anymore" - loved it.

I also loved the "gotcha" scene at the end of The I in Team. Yeah, yeah I admit that for some plot cliches, I am a cheap date.

And I don't think you need shipper bias to love Something Blue. The humor in that is classic beyond the Spuffy. Giles: "That's alright. I have more scotch." Bwah. I know a few B/A shippers and non-shippers who also love the episode.

For me it wasn't actually even Spuffy per se, because of their reaction to each other at the end. Any dirty little secret fantasies either might've had about each other before that - heh the reality likely would've killed that for a little while. Somewhat old-fashioned, over jealous Spike reality for Buffy, and sappy "wind beneath my wings", frilly Buffy reality for Spike. I know bad, bad Spuffy fan for saying that, but for me, on the list of "Spuffy" episodes, Something Blue doesn't even make the top 10, probably not the top 15. Except for the outward smoochies displays, it is almost more non-Spuffy for me than Spuffy.


I agree wholeheartedly here, and with some of your other rankings (especially the top 3, though not necessarily in the same order), but Bargaining in the bottom half and Doublemeat Palace over All the Way? That's just wrong - heh. I understand that for most people there was too much Dawn - I didn't mind at all - but that episode had so many important plot developments essential to season 6 - the Tara/Willow disagreement that eventually lead to their breakup, the Anya/Xander announcement (not that I liked that plot arc, but it was part of the season's storyline), and the Buffy/Giles disagreement over Dawn that came from the end. I also even liked the creepy old man red herring - the headless jack-in-the-box - nice touch. For me, an underrated episode.

And thinking on all this, have we done favorite Spuffy episodes? We did seasons, I know, but episodes might be fun to revisit.

So to cheer up Jaime...

Favorite Spuffy episodes?

Callace

I dont get what people have against season four. its my favorite after 7. it has this very early developed spuffyness to it - the "I hate you but I want to help you kind."

I so get what you say Crack of Doom, about beeing dependent on the show for personal happiness. I felt it that way for a while too. As I have said before, my most intense (and in that way worst) Spuffymoment is the Church scene in Beneath you. I was physically shaken after watching that, and couldnt stop crying.

my favorite spuffy is (perhaps thereby naturally) the basement scene in the third act of Never leave me, where Spike (and I) got some reassuring that she did really forgive, and believe in him. (and then I like her carresing of his face with the wash cloth

Callace

favorite seasons generally

4
7
6
5
3
2
(never bothered to see season 1)

favorite seasons spuffy
7
4
6
5

season 2 and 3 dont count in my mind, since there was Spike and Buffy, but not really any Spuffy to mention. season 1 has no Spike


list of favorite spuffy episodes: (chronologically, because I love them all, and dont really want to rank them.)
Pangs
Something Blue
Fool For Love
Intervention
OMWF
Wrecked
Dead Things
As You Were
CWDP
Never leave me
The killer in me
Lies My Parents Told Me
Touched
Chosen

Crack of Doom

I do too. But there's just not enough to redeem the heaping overdosing of Riley the show subjected me to in S4. I don't think it's irrational to dislike and grow resentful of the fact that the dull and unintriguing new guy is monopolizing so much screen time on the show. Like James did, he needed to pay his dues first and earn his leading man status. Not be handed it on a silver platter.

I don't dislike Hush. But I don't love it the way most fans do either. Cool concept episode. The horror's good. It'd probably be in my top 5 for season 4. But If I were to choose overrated Buffy episodes this might be one of them. The novelty kind of wears off after the first couple of viewings. Restless holds up much better because no matter how many times I watch it it's still such a trip for me (might partly explain Wrecked love, with all the acid tripping crack den scenes ). The fact that I don't entirely get it is the point I think. Oh and fan of David Lynch movies here. 'Nuff said.

I probably wouldn't love the show so much if they didn't give us an overly angsty season to slit your wrists to. Must be my goth-ish tendencies. Not that I don't appreciate humor too. I do. It's just not a primary draw of the show for me.

Heh. That's because you don't have any JM/SMG RL shipper tendencies. They get so into it. Like they're enjoying themselves way too much. The way too convincing making out alone is enough to rank the Spuffy in it pretty highly with me. I don't take that sort of thing lightly. As opposed to them the actors who played Michael and Nikita - their kissing was always so obviously fake. I'd never suspect anything going on off screen with those two. They did have a certain romantic chemistry but just not that kind -- similarly that's how I feel about James and Juliet as well though I did enjoy Spike/Dru a lot. They're my 2nd favorite canon pairing.

And I also disagree that the episode isn't really a major Spuffy ep. Yes, Joss wrote the episode with the intention of showing how wrong a relationship between them would be, but instead their crazy chemistry together just puts the upcoming B/R pairing to shame and it also caused their fanbase to double in size (I lived off of all those post-Something Blue fics hehe) the same way Becoming II nabbed them an actual UC fanbase when before that they basically had none -- something a zillion Biley eps in S4 couldn't manage to do. Which just goes to show that it wasn't really that most fans couldn't get over Bangel that made Biley such a failure with fans, the fault simply lies with the writing and acting of the pairing itself. In this case Bangel's just used as a convenient scapegoat.

"But I can't help thinking - isn't that where the fire comes from? Can a nice, safe relationship be that intense? I know it's nuts, but.. part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting." This quote I feel turned out to be very portenty and foreshadows that Buffy and Riley were doomed, while Spuffy was inevitable. So for me at least as a shipper I think there's more to get out of the episode besides being treated to a hot Spuffy smoochathon.

I don't mind conversing with you but I do think it's a fundamental difference in taste that keeps us on opposite sides of the spectrum on most aspects of the show opinionwise. I'm not sure there's any reconciling that.

ETA: Heh you're probably right about Bargaining. I actually felt pretty conflicted already. Maybe I'd place it above Hells Bells and Entropy I dunno. I'm not changing my mind about Doublemeat Palace and All the Way. The penis monster gives me the giggles.

Night Nymph

This is a good point, because even though Buffy says at the end of the episode that she is so over the bad boy thing, I don't entirely believe her - or at least not long term. At that moment, she might think so - whereas at the beginning of the episode, there was much "flirting" going on, the actual smooching might have gotten it out of her system for a while, but in my opinion, her bad boy tendencies can only be delayed, not snuffed altogether.

If we all agreed on everything, I think it would make for some fairly uninspired discussions. Though I do tend to try to keep my posts to a few larger ones with all my thoughts together at only certain times and let everyone else do the flowing the rest of the time. I try to discuss without interrupting too much.

As for being on opposite sides of the spectrum Buffyversewise, I don't quite agree with that. If we were really opposites, I'd be a B/A shipper and Spike would be my least favorite character, so I think we might agree on as many things as we disagree. Considering I'm an older broad, and a fairly nerdy one at that, I think it's rather amazing that we agree on anything - .

My own contribution to favorite Spuffy episodes. Note: These are chosen for Spuffiness enjoyability, not necessarily because I think the episodes themselves are great. That would be a different list. These are in rough order, though those in the top ten can switch positions depending on my mood.

Never Leave Me
Touched
Intervention
Fool For Love
Chosen
Dead Things
After Life
Showtime
Beneath You
Smashed
Sleeper
The Gift
Tabula Rasa
Once More, With Feeling
The Killer in Me
Something Blue
Lies My Parents Told Me
First Date
All the Way
Conversations With Dead People

Callace

I think the angst in S6 is generally great, but it was taken too far in the end, to my liking. (I have written earlier about how I would preferred Entropy to end, and Seing Red to begin.)

I love that there is at least one season that is mostly just fun. Joss talks about S4 as a scoobies fall apart-season, but I have never understood that. to me, S4 was
about making new friends and about the impact that new friends can have on people. they even go as far as to bringing back the Big Bad from both S2 (Spike) and 3 (Faith) and get them starting to wish they were good, because of experiencing the friendship (or at least help) of the scoobies.

I didnt think you were any much for that sillyness? (Ill restrain myself from ranting, Im just slightly surprised)

I positively love the way that ep. was acted. It was SO powerful.

I dont think it was meant to be only freak show. If so, It would have been directed differently. I think they knew spuffyness would be a hit, and therefore was trying it out already. But as it was, Spuffy was structurally impossible - they were mortal enemies. the only way they could include some smoochies was by magic.

There clearly was some "flirting" in the beginning of the ep. -Buffy teasing Spike with her exposed neck, and him going for it, etc. the Ep is for me very spuffynated. I think it was those experiences that - althought he wouldnt even admit it to himself, started the first real spark in Spikes crush on Buffy.

Only Hope

Season 2 and Season 1 I havnt watched much yet

Season 3 I loved. Though there was no real Spuffy I loved the whole faith thing. Also The mayor was funny though very annoying.

For me season 4 wasnt that great either. I liked the early epsiode though not as much as the high school ones. Though after Something Blue which I thought was hillarous the Biley thing made me mad. It was just so annoying having him be her big caring army guy. And the whole Adam thing I thought was a little to Alienvs.Preadoter kind of thing.

Season 5 was okay. I liked the Spuffy espodies towards the end of course. But I actually wasnt to impressed with the whole Ben/Glory thing. Though It grew on me towards the end. And Biley breaks up.

Season 6 I thought was asome. I loved all the epsoide though Double Meat Palace grossed me out (shudders). I like angst aso this was the perfect season for me. I also enjoied evil Willow. I also found the nerd gang humorus though slighty annoying.

Season 7 was a little corny at times but it reallywraped things up well. Except for the fact that Spike and Buffy should still be togather. The only problem I had was there wasnt enough focus on Buffy it was more about the other poteinals.