Jaime Bee

IWRY is I will remember you.

I agree with Ragnorak. Joss either really wanted to cause a up heavel or just made a stupid mistake by putting the lolipop.

I think that Angel had a his own destiny and Buffy was just the start of the people he was supposed to help according to TPTB.

loquacity

I do love this episode but isn't as good at part 2. It did, however, set it up perfectly was a great end to the stellar season - probably the best season to date out of Buffy's seven seasons. Tied with S3 perhaps. This really was Buffy at its peak, with fantastic plot, characterisation and script. Not to mention quotable, one of my best friends and I sing "someone wasn't wor-thy" to each other all the time, as well as saying "It's a big rock...can't wait to tell my friends, they don't have a rock this big. "

I remember being so shocked when I first watched this ep, I had no idea Angelus was going to lead Buffy into the trap, to have Dru ruin the library and kill Kendra. And the predatory way he said "Hello, lover" to Buffy in the graveyard, clad in the infamous leather pants? Rowr.

I just love Drusilla's entrance into the library, Juliet Landeau looked so fearsome yet alluring, just like Drusilla was supposed to be. I also loved seeing seeing her flashback to the nunnery, I love that Angelus was such a sick bastard. Poor Dru. That flashback was nicely juxtaposed with the next scene of seeing loony Dru - "I met an old man. Didn't like him, he got stuck in my teeth." Disgusting imagery though.

Chair shortage! Aw. I find Cordelia's pronounciation of "emu" endlessly amusing because Charisma says "E-moo" which is so wrong yet absolutely hilarious. Hee.

That end shot of Buffy running through the school hallway is classic - wasn't it used in the beginning credits for a few seasons? The look on Buffy's face when she sees the devastated library and Kendra's body is heartbreaking and my God, what a cliffhanger!

It was an all-around great episode and one that I watch often, before I watch Part 2 which is pretty damn often, if I say so myself. Heh. I can't get enough of it, I guess.

Bronson

That is my impression also. I did not think of the lollipop scene as sexual at the time. BTW, how do you guys compare the pre Slayer Buffy to Cordelia? Buffy once said that she was worst than her but it did not seem that way to me. What did you guys think?

sum1

Joss is way into sexual subtext and what not. Absolutely NO WAY did he put in such an obvious sexual symbol as the lollipop sucking without being fully aware of its sexual significance. Joss intended it to be sexual.

And let's not forget, Joss has shown a liking for making things ugly, so it shouldn't be surprising he chose to make B/A more obviously creepy that way. What we're seeing there is B/A getting its beginning in a no-sex-for-a-long time old bum's lust for a scantily clad 15 year old who he sees on her high school steps. And then of course he starts following her around and trails her to a new town and eventually has sex with her while she's still a minor. And later walks out on her, breaking her heart and permanently screwing her up as regards relationships.

Not to say sex was the only thing that got Angel interested in Buffy. I think he saw her as some sort of symbol of purity and innocence, of hope for his redemption. But the sexual element is very obviously crucial. Let's not forget, this is Angel we're talking about, the guy who started out as a drunken womanizer.

AlexEvans

Nah.

The lollipop was just a product placement. Commercialism at its best.



PS Yes, Drusilla was just awesome in this ep. She didn't get to go for the scary and the killing that often, but she was sure good at it.

sum1

a new hope

Exactly. Vampire or not, with a soul or not, Angel was never a good guy. And I think his so-called ''love'' for Buffy was nothing but lust. I mean, the fact that he didn't want to work on a non-sexual relationship with her and just left proves that...but that belongs in another thread...anyway, that scene in this episode kinda proves that. He was stalking her, watching her, at the age of 15, suck on a lollipop...and that's the moment when he claims he fell in love with her...kinda sick, but maybe that's just me

Bronson

Yes I forgot about that about Liam. I was thinking about Angel not how he started. Some of Liam would still be in him.

What did you guys think of Whistler? Did you think he was a messenger from the PTB? Did you hope to see more of him. I did read that the actor was either too busy or did not want to do Angel so they had Doyle instead.

Night Nymph

I'll repeat my observation from above...
...and add. Well at least not very helpful to Buffy in that stiuation. He was more helpful to Angel.


As for Doyle's role compared to Whistler: based on Doyle's role as a character, I'm not sure Whistler could've filled the same function. Whistler seemed to be more of an observer and general guide and probably not linked to any one individual (unless he showed up exclusively to help Angel, and I would tend to doubt that considering I think that he mentioned that he had been around a long time). Doyle's visions seemed to require that he get intimately involved with the situations, even sensing the emotions, etc. of the person in trouble. It also linked him fairly exclusively to Angel or whoever the person doing the saving would be should something happen to Angel.

LizMoore30

I am no fan of the B/A relationship, but even I find it hard to believe that Angel's feelings for Buffy was nothing more than lust.

a new hope

I don't know...it could've been more but he didn't like like it was...In Amends he said ''I want to take comfort in you and I know it will cost me my soul, and part of me doesn't care.'' Take comfort...pure lust, no love in that phrase...but I could be wrong...

Cati

I don't agree that Angel's feelings for Buffy were pure lust. Partly yes because otherwise he wouldn't have been so quick to take her virginity. If his love for her was pure he would have waited until she was 1) of age; 2) in a solid mental frame to decide whether to take such a big step.. In Surprise she was clearly distressed. So there was definitely a lust component to his feelings. But I think the major part was Angel's desire to achieve redemption and feel less horrible about himself. He thought if she loved him, he couldn't be so awful and one day he might be cleansed of his sins. Thus he was using her and his feelings for her weren't purely about romance.

Jaime Bee

That is an Excellent post. I couldn't have said it better.

Samii

Well, I have no idea what episode you were watching. But I saw no lusting whatsoever. I think he felt for her. As a vamp with a soul he was aware of what she would have to go through. I think that the lolli-pop was definately symbolic but I think that you are way off with your sexual analogy. I think that it symbolised her innocence. Sucking a lolli-pop has essentially childish connotations. I think that it was put in there to show how much Buffy had to sacrafice from that point onwards. We see throughout the rest of the episode and even the series up until that point that Buffy is no longer the lolli-pop sucking teenager she used to be. She had to grow up way too fast and she lost that innocence. I don't understand how anybody could interpret that scene as Angel 'lusting' at her. His eyes were teared up, I think he felt bad for her given the first hand knowledge that he had of what a slayer has to endure. And that is why he wanted to help her. I don't think that he wanted her to meet the same fate that all the other slayers before her had.

Jacaroo

My thoughts exactly, Sam.

One thing though, someone mentioned that they didn't think Angel loved Buffy the first time he saw her? He himself tells us that he did in Season 3.

"...You walked down the steps, and I loved you."- Helpless.

As for the creepy dark car/lollypop thing, I have to admit I've never seen it that way before. I always rather liked that scene actually as it was technically the first glimpse Angel had of Buffy.

Anyway! I just loved this episode from start to finish. One of my all time favourates.