Buffy and Angel - Empty Places: The Most Hated Scene

Sosa Lola · 11-06-2008, 08:11 AM

I've read Arana's thoughts on the subject and I agree 100%:

"When watching S7, I actually saw Buffy's banishment coming and was expecting a mutiny at some point later in the season. To be honest, I would've been dissappointed if nothing had happened because the whole season was building up to it. Like many others here, I think the scene itself was awkwardly written and less-than-perfectly executed but I think it had to happen given the way Buffy behaves during the season.

I'm not saying she had it coming really, or that it was totally her fault. Rather, she had to start leading a considerably larger group of people than she had before most of whom she didn't even know, and she didn't know how to deal with the situation so it led to her detaching herself from the others more and taking a superior position. Her attitude started irritating the people around her because I think she started increasingly clearly indicating by her behavior towards others that she's better than them and that they should just do whatever she says because she knows best. She probably did it subconsciously since it was exactly what she had been afraid of for a long time, according to her conversation with Holden in "Conversations with Dead People". All in all, I think Buffy is incredibly well and consistently written during S7, and though I did feel sorry for her in "Empty Places", I think it was bound to happen and in the end a good thing for Buffy herself.

Her dialogue in the end scene shows to me just how far she's come and why it was necessary that she'd have some perspective forced upon her. I don't think her plan to go back to the vineyard was that bad but the way she wasn't ready to consider or even hear what the others might have to say was so indiscreet and arrogant that it was bound to get a bad reaction. And when that reaction came she was utterly surprised that someone would question her ultimate leadership, even her friends who were supposed to know better. Her perception of the situation was extremely one-sided, just everyone betraying her when she had just been trying to do the job everyone had pushed onto her without a second thought. I don't feel it was her fault that she handled the new situation badly but it doesn't change the fact that she did.

Her line about Faith leading the others into a disaster is an especially cruel one since it basically means that Faith will inevitably fail no matter what she does and is a bad leader unlike Buffy herself. It's unfair because Faith hadn't actually promoted herself as the leader and still Buffy started blindly throwing such mean comments about her skills. Even so, she ignores the fact that she had just returned from leading everyone into a disaster herself. Of course it's a very natural thing to do, start blaming others as self-defence, but her comment must've stung Faith pretty hard in that situation. I also think the line embodies the way Buffy has become, instead of "The Slayer Who Has Friends", "The Slayer Who Has Lots Of People Living In Her House".

And while talking about Faith, I don't think for a second the others were suggesting that her right to be the leader was just as big as Buffy's was because they were ready to accept her as the leader. It was simply a way to prop up their criticism of Buffy, to have something concrete to stand up to her with.

As for the lack of apologies later on, I don't think the situation called for them. They might've not been completely okay with each other but I think Buffy had as much to apologize as the others, and so they could pretty much call it even since I believe that both parties started to understand what they had done wrong."

ashleyt · 11-06-2008, 12:18 PM

I can agree to a certain extent. But I still smiled after watching the events in the end of Touched and the beginning of End Of Days

. Sorry but at least Buffy was gracious at the end by accepting her mistakes, they didn't even apologize for their parts in the whole affair. Especially Anya.

courtneybangelcakes · 11-06-2008, 02:36 PM

I just read the title and had to get my first reaction out - I hate this scene with a passion of like a 10000 suns. I cried tears of anger it - it was horrific and I still do not agree with it on ANY levels. Her friends betrayed her. Her sister, who she DIED for her, betrayed her. And it did change a lot of my viewpoints on her friends and the scoobies.

**Crystal Clear** · 11-06-2008, 04:15 PM

I think the only person who I could really understand where they were coming from with their viewpoint in that scene was Xander, since he was the only one who was really justified in sharing it given what had happened to him. Buffy's poor judgement in that scenario cost him dearly, and I totally sympathise with him and his reluctance to risk putting himself in further danger.

Buffy's outburst at Faith also bothers me. From Buffy's POV, it still dates back to their long rivalry and her continuing to believe that Faith wants everything Buffy has, when clearly Faith's motives have changed by this point.

However, Dawn and the Potentials sicken me. The way they attempt to take the moral highground is laughable.

Suddenly, we're to assume it's their house and what they say, goes. Dawn ordering Buffy to leave simply because the 'vote' is against her, is a real downfall for her. I don't care what Buffy said or did, it's still her sister, and it totally undermines Buffy risking her relationships with her friends and Giles in season five to protect Dawn with her life.

ashleyt · 11-12-2008, 02:59 PM

Dawn in particular pissed me off as she didn't exist 3 years ago and Buffy died to save her. What right did she have? She was not a big player or someone who'd been fighting the good fight for even as long as the other scoobies. She just happened to be created and sent to Buffy for protection. That girl is incredibly ungrateful and she should be thanking her lucky stars that she got sent to a person who would defend her so strongly considering her beginning.

Thinking about the potentials makes me

courtneybangelcakes · 11-12-2008, 03:02 PM

Dawn upset me the most, by far. Buffy died for her - I can't believe Dawn even went there. Especially with her own sister.

Ace Of Hearts · 11-12-2008, 03:37 PM

God, I hate this scene too!!

Ok, so Buffy was acting like a b**, but her best friends?? I've always viewed them as family, so that made me really disappointed and angry

And Dawn is an annoying ungrateful brat for doing that to her own sister!
Seriously, this was all wrong

To have Buffy not trust her friends, and to have them turning their backs on her, that was really messed up, in a season-six kinda way.
Oh, and Anya, of all people, telling Buffy she wasn't worthy of being the chosen one??? WTF??

royalღcaliber · 11-12-2008, 05:17 PM

I absolutely hated that scene, I felt so bad for Buffy..she may have been a bit harsh that season, but I don't think she deserved to be banished and betrayed like that from her best friends, and ugh Dawn..who does she think she is?!
All I know is I wish Spike was there when all of that was going down, I would have loved to see him defend Buffy, so that way Buffy would have had at least one person on her side, but I think that was the point of sending Spike away so they could do that and she would have no-one defending her..which is extremely sad

MysteryGirl · 11-12-2008, 05:37 PM

I hated that scene. Having all of Buffy's friends turn on her like that was horrible. I kind of expect the potentials to turn on her because they don't really know her and are a bunch of children,but the scoobys?? That's just wrong.

If it wasn't for Buffy they would probably all be dead. Anya doesn't like Buffy because of Xander and Robin is still angry about Spike so they have no loyalty to Buffy.
Dawn is just...

I mean, they have a point: girls died, but even if they've lost girls, Buffy was doing what she needed to do. Her job. Its her job to save the world and she doesn't have time to make chitchat with a house full of teenagers. She might have been harsh with them,but she had good intentions.
I also didn't like how desperate Buffy got though at the end. It just seemed wrong for her to plead.

amy2345 · 11-13-2008, 02:05 AM

Have to agree w/ the points on Dawn. I mean really Dawn your sister died for you. NOT TO MENTION took care of you all this time. Took a lousy job at the doublemeat palace just for you to have roof of your head. Then at the end of that speech this is my house too Buffy. WTF, Dawn. When did you start paying for the moragage. All you did was whine and sholift. Oh, you potientals I've got two words for you well actually three stup

up. Buffy is saving your ass and showing the ropes of what you will eventually become. Now, I can understand Xander anger in it b/c he lost an eye. But ANya please, keep your mouth shut for once. Buffy is protecting you too. I'm truly glad

in the beginning of Touched Spike tells the group that they are truly tailors.

Rogue · 11-13-2008, 02:14 AM

Ooooh...Looks like I'm going to have to think hard about exactly what I think of this scene, so that I'm not just saying simply that I loathe it more than any other scene on BTVS.