straws

I feel like I have a hard time recognizing or even liking Angel after S4. He really is lost without Cordy. He's just a shell of himself.

I ate too much Halloween candy and now have a sugar hangover

Why would Illyria even care? She must have an ulterior motive. I just can't see her being Angel's cheerleader. She always looked down on him and would've killed him multiple times if she could have. So dumb.

Also Angel going back and wanting to dust Angelus honestly bores me as a plot. Also it would mean that Buffy, Cordy, the scoobies, etc, would all be dead and that even the world might no longer exist because he helped save all their lives and the fate of the world more than once.

I've also read this plot done better in fanfic so it's nothing new to me. Pass.

I'll check it out.

Ashes Fall

I did not recognize him either although granted I was coming off a Bones binge and so had gotten used to DB as a different character.
He was stone, almost Angelus like.
He truly was a shell of himself without his Cordy.

Precisely my point. As I said, it was like she was possessed by Cordy. It was 50 shades of wrong.

That essentially was Illyria's speech.

Well, at least the single issues were cheap.

Ashes Fall

Hey Cangel groupies, I need help with a memory problem.

I've read a few fanfics in my recent binge that reference a night during the Angelus arc in season 2 of BTVS when Angelus kidnapped Cordy and told her all of the things he was going to do to her.
What episode is this? I want to watch it!

Jaime Bee

This wasn't on the show.

I would remember this.

Angelus never kidnapped Cordy on BTVS.

Ashes Fall

Well ****. It sounded legit because more than one author used it.

Jaime Bee

Well I know in Spuffy fic there are things that are used over & over that didn't happen on the show.

It's just something fans/writers like the idea of happening & it gets overused.

I don't even understand though why you would think this happening in Season 2 of BTVS is that plausible.

Buffy would have been the one kidnapped by Angelus at this point b/c that was the story.

Ashes Fall

And here when I see another fanfic using something I thought up, I get worried that I'd come off as plagiarizing.

Wrong. Angelus wouldn't have kidnapped Buffy, at least not for some time, because his objective was to break her by going after those she cared about. Remember he grabbed Willow at one point.

Cordelia might not have been Buffy's friend but Buffy cared enough nonetheless whether she lived or died, she'd already proven this by having saved her life on multiple occasions. Regardless of what kind of person she is, Cordelia is human and an innocent which qualifies under Buffy's moral responsibility.
Let's not forget that Buffy felt guilty when she thought she killed Ted, her mother's possessive and abusive boyfriend who might very well have been Angelus's equal had he been a vampire, much worse than Cordelia (Good thing the real Ted didn't know that vampirism was an option as he'd built the robot when he became terminally ill).

Jaime Bee

Oh yeah I get that about Buffy & Cordy.

You should checkout this thread on SMG. The OP Carmen made & it's

http://www.fanforum.com/f72/buffy-co...-lot-63195650/

My point is that it's not something the show back then would have gone to sadly.

Unless it was just Angelus kidnapping Cordy but nothing more than this on screen.

Buffy saving her before anything happened to her.

Like was done many times on BTVS.

I agree with your post about Cordy having importance.

It just wasn't not enough to get anything real on screen about it Season 2 on BTVS.


Joss honestly couldn't go too far with Angelus b/c it was network TV.

I think partly why the SL with him deciding to end the world was written.

We had him doing evil things but not to the extent he could have being considered the most evil vampire in history!


I don't think network TV could show the extent of Angelus's evil except for a lot of alluding.

Angelus killing Jenny & doing some small torture honestly to Giles the worst shown.

It's usually so much worse in fic I read & more than plausible to me.

Notice we saw him torture a man not a woman on screen as well.

I think Drusilla changed to Spike's sire was b/c the network at least partly.

They wouldn't allow such an intimate moment for 2 men on screen.

Joss already had to fight for Willow/Tara to have one kiss!

The WB was very strict about just 2 women even kissing on screen.

Ashes Fall

True, point taken.
I wasn't so much arguing for Cordy as much as that Angelus wouldn't have kidnapped Buffy either...at least not for a while.

I've never considered the Angelus discretion before but you're quite right.
That would validly explain why Drusilla's backstory with Angelus was never shown and only lightly established. Pity, I would have liked to have seen that.
As well as why we don't see Angelus and Darla actually feasting on the gypsy woman or Holtz's family just the lead ups and indicators--if memory serves.

In retrospect, now that I can see the Angelus portrayals from this perspective, that's probably the reason Angelus had to be handled in BTVS before he reached the point where he'd want to kidnap Buffy, for discretion.

Fanfics are most definitely far cruder, in C/Aus fanfics he repeatedly rapes Cordy. Hell, in mine, it'll be no different.

Jaime Bee

Angelus would have killed everybody Buffy loved b/c I saw what he was doing as trying to turn her into another Dru.

I'm sure he would have used torture as well on her friends/family at times.

I think he would have kidnapped Buffy & tortured her including rape & on the people she loved too.

There would have been some he might have even turned but then just killed.

I think even though I haven't watched ATS in forever that if something really graphic was shown that I would remember it.

I think it was mostly alluded to on both shows.

The things Spike did most evil as well were never shown on screen too.

I have to admit I'm really glad they didn't get graphic about those things.

It's just not what I wanted to see on screen.

I will skip stuff like this in fic a lot of the time.

I know Angel/Angelus are supposed to be 2 diff. vampires but rape would be too far for me.

I would have stopped shipping Spuffy if Spike had raped Buffy.

It wouldn't have mattered whether he fought for his soul back.

The almost was bad enough & considering he didn't even get close to inside her helps.

The idea of a woman being with a man that raped her isn't something I can ship.

I can ship the man changing & having a clean slate with another woman though.

My Soap OTP Jack/Jennifer are about his redemption falling in love with her.

That's just the way I feel about it.

Ashes Fall

The Spuffy almost rape counted very much to me, it's most of the reason I didn't ship them for a while.

I concur that Angelus wanted to do to Buffy the same as he did to Dru, however, in my headcanon, he would rape Cordy, in AtS, not for torture but out of obsession, because he feels his twisted soulless version of Angel's love for her. This is, in fact, how most fanfics portray it.

Jaime Bee

I completely understand.

It's hard to deal with even almost rape happening with your ship.

I did at first have a hard time with it too.

The fact that it wasn't swept under the rug in the narrative helped me still ship Spuffy.

It was made clear over & over what Spike did was more than wrong & he didn't try to blame it only not having his soul


I feel like Joss could have found another way to show Spike was still evil & needed to finally decide to go back to being just a monster or becoming a better man.

Spike's love for Buffy was selfish & more obsession even though we saw him do selfless things. Spike like Angelus to truly change he needed a soul.

That was the only way both could love in a human way.

I think in a way Angelus was obsessed with Buffy & Dru & could have had a dark twisted type love for Buffy. I can see this with Cordy too.


I just think with Dru it was about driving her insane.


I remember Angelus saying Buffy would pay for making him feel human. I can see him feeling this way about Cordy as well.

I'm really glad this type of thing even when Angel didn't have his soul again happen with Cordy in any way at all.


Do you think there was even a twisted vampire love between Angelus/Darla?

Ashes Fall

No, I don't.
Darla was pure lust, an amplification of the lust all of Liam's countless conquests were.
Recall, Liam never loved either, except his sister.

"His lies sound pretty when the stars are out. - But he forgets every promise he’s made when the sun comes up again."

That's what the tavern maid told Darla the night she discovered him and it's what sealed the deal.

Buffy was his first love, even Davids Greenwalt and Boreanaz have referred to it as such in their Cangel quotes.

Ashes Fall

Straws, I've started the fic 'Without You', another from your rec list.
Here is my assessment so far:

The story is absolutely compelling and shows excellent skill in development and imagery but the grammar is on the opposite end of the spectrum.

This thing has the worst grammar issues I've encountered, the first to pepper the narrative with sentences that are difficult to comprehend. Granted, some cases suggest ESL, that's all the more reason this author needed an editor.

It also has the most simple typos I've seen in one fic such as missing words or pronouns, 'or' instead of 'of' and duplicate words.

There are composition issues as well.
Sometimes she switches from showing to telling and doesn't offer much information as to what is going on such as the scene in which Angel goes to the Master and allows himself to be tortured for the location of the girls which is what I'm reading now.
I am not understanding the reason for this and the torture isn't described at all yet Angel is described as feeling the pain of burning flesh.

Furthermore, while the Angel/Cordelia dynamic is fantastic, I'm having trouble wrapping my head around Cordelia/Willow as friends even ones that were clearly forced together by adversity and the so far implications that Willow is attracted to Spike. Regardless of gender, he's so far from her type.
I can appreciate, however, that given the specific perimeter of the AU being either season one or three of BtVS, probably three none of the other more appropriate female characters, Buffy, Faith, or Fred would have worked.
In the case of Buffy, it's more complicated, the other two just weren't present in the timeline. The ship clash (C/A and B/A) would have been a problem and she'd only fit the Spike pairing, she's just slightly more believable than Willow for the Cordelia friendship.
Although Faith was present in canon if this is season 3, in this AU she wouldn't end up in Sunnydale even without the mystical electric fences preventing anyone either leaving or coming because Buffy either didn't end up in Sunnydale or did for too little time and with Giles presumably dead, Sunnydale lacks a watcher. That backstory hasn't been told or implied nor has Buffy been mentioned so far which would help.
Nonetheless clearly, this AU resulted from one of the following, as The Master's ascension was successful or at least semi-successful:
1. Buffy wasn't revived in 'Prophecy Girl'
2. She for whatever reason ended up in Cleveland rather than Sunnydale as in Wish!verse.
It so far feels more like the latter since Buffy hasn't been mentioned.

Fortunately, the story has just barely managed to evade being obstructed by these issues.

I'm enjoying it. Reminds me of a novel I started to read sometime last year but got more into others called 'The Immortal Rules' which is set in a similar world, one dominated by vampires and even similarly begins with a rouge human group food raid gone horribly wrong.

straws

You are thinking of the infamous 'Angelus tackle' in the episode 2x18 'Killed By Death'.



Buffy is in the cemetery with The Scoobies and Angelus chooses Cordelia specifically (even though Buffy and Cordy were never really close to Angel's knowledge, and that hurting Cordy wouldn't have nearly the same effect on her as killing Willow/Giles/Xander. Plus she is legit the same distance away from Angelus as Willow&Xander. He deliberately picks her ) It is a moment that spawned a lot of great CA fic. Authors usually expound on it, so that's probably why you've seen it come up so much as Angelus 'kidnapping' her. They also like to fill in the blanks and have him whisper all the terrible things he was going to do to her before Buffy's gets him off of Cordy.

Angelus admits as much.
Not to mention his attempt to kill Xander on Valentines Day to leave out for Buffy to find.
Angelus straight up tells Faith he wants to rape her in S4.

4x14

Quote:

FAITH (on her hands and knees) Screw you. ANGELUS Maybe after. I like my girls to lie still.

Short answer? Yes. You don't stay with someone for a hundred+years without it meaning something. I think they were their demons perfect mates. Maybe not love as we know it. but it was twisted and as close to "love" (the judge declared him free of humanity, after all...but told Spike&Dru they reeked of love) as Angelus & Darla could get.