Ashes Fall

That's a well-constructed speech but it missed a few points.

- The Jasmine SL wasn't the only way Joss lashed out, I believe he also verbally abused Charisma.

- Joss basically tricked her into signing on to 'You're Welcome' by not revealing to her that Cordy was being killed off until after she did. When she found out, she sobbed.

Side note: This was probably done with an alternate version of the ending which had Cordelia simply walking out after kissing Angel, no phone call, nothing to establish whether or not she died.
It is said by the Buffy and Angel wiki that this ending was created as a diversion which was used in promos in a failed attempt to prevent the real one from being leaked, something that had been a problem with several previous episodes.

She came to accept it because of how moved she was by the script.

Crystal Clear

straws, that tumblr post is excellent and it reiterates all of my thoughts ever since the show first aired.


Another thing that made me mad is that Joss was too much of a coward to tell Charisma to her face that Cordelia was being killed off. He sent Jeffrey Bell to do his dirty work. Nothing against Mr Bell, but she had known Joss since day one of Buffy, so it should have come from him. But I guess we know why it didn't - the whole situation was basically a betrayal.


There's a video on YouTube from around 2008 of a panel with writers & actors of Buffy - Charisma, Joss, Nicholas Brendon, David Fury, Jane Espenson etc are all there. I'll try and find the link to it later on, but I think it speaks volumes that Charisma is sitting next to David Fury (the man who wrote "You're Welcome" and a brilliant Cordy/Xander episode, "Go Fish").
I think she sticks by those whose work she appreciates. In other words, I doubt she will ever appreciate the circumstances surrounding her ONE appearance in Season 5, despite how beautiful the episode is.

Also, Joss may have an ego about Charisma loving "You're Welcome", but the knowledge that Sarah Michelle Gellar was approached BEFORE Charisma to be in Angel Season 5 is also disgraceful.
Come on, I love SMG, but her role was on BTVS. Let's not pretend other wise.


Yes and there's a convention she attended with Julie Benz where Charisma states "not understanding the relationship with Connor" and Julie (who played his mom) brilliantly intervenes with, "oh, I did NOT approve of that."

(Charisma and Julie are best friends in real life, so I'm sure they've had many talks about their displeasure of the direction the show went in.)


Me too, but I do like how Angel is ALL about Cordelia in that dream. She is everything to him.

And I DON'T care that he whispers "Buffy?" after the sex scene. That was simply a call-back to him losing his soul in BTVS "Surprise", nothing more.



They finally made good use of Faith, I agree she and Wesley are the only strong points of Season 4. They have both grown so impressively as characters AND as a team.



One thing that truly annoyed me, other than Cordelia NOT being Cordelia in that scene with Willow, is that the all-powerful Willow did not sense ANYTHING wrong with Cordy.

For heaven's sake, writers - Willow was in tune with nature itself. Joss already established this in the first episode of Buffy Season 7. Yet she can't even sense that the essence of Cordelia has disappeared when she's in the same room as her??

The lack of character awareness when it came to Evil!Cordy was stupid. Like you said, Ashes Fall, the fact that Angel witnessed Cordy in bed with Connor and didn't think it was out of character, was unbelievably dumb, too.

(Although I suppose you could argue that he was too shocked and heartbroken to truly think straight in that situation, but still... Willow, of all people, WOULD know that it's not the real Cordelia.)

Rabbit-moon

Holy cow! What an in interesting discussion. I didn't know any of this stuff!

However, I did know that Season 4 of Angel sucked! I was shocked by how off the rails the show got. And, especially, I couldn't believe what Joss and company did to the Cory character. This discussion sort of clears that up for me.

FuriosityShell

That's an interesting Tumblr discussion. I disagree with both posters though.
I'm not going to defend JW because I definitely think he was WRONG. The badness of S4 Cordelia-wise, the lack of acknowledgement of her in S5, the tricking Charisma and neglecting to tell her she was off the show. All of it was just completely unprofessional on his part. However, it's important to remember that there are two sides to every story and we haven't had Joss'. Fans have asked Charisma multiple times about what she thought about S4, her relationship with Joss, etc. but we haven't heard from Joss's perspective either regarding what was going through his mind in 2003 when he did the things he did with Cordy/CC. I disagree with the notion that he purposely derailed Cordy's character to punish CC. I don't think Joss would purposely mess with or sabotage his own creation to punish someone. His firing her was an ass move, but one I can't be mad at. He has the right to choose which actors he wants to work with or not. What I HATE however is the disrespectful way in which he did it.

I also think people pin everything way too much on just Joss. I think the entire team of writers/producers are just as guilty when it comes to everything. For instance, the fact that NO ONE from the series informed Charisma that she had been fired from the show and she found out from the press shortly before S5 started airing reflects really badly on them, and I blame not just Joss, but Jeff Bell, David Fury and the entire crew of showrunners.

Based on an interview with Vincent Kartheiser, S4 was as much of a mess
offscreen as it was onscreen. During S4, Joss had his hands full running three shows. David Greenwalt and Tim Minear (who were the main showrunners during S2-S3) had left, and Jeffrey Bell was the one in charge. According to Vincent, Joss was barely on set during that time period. VK also expressed displeasure with the storylines that season and said that he did not enjoy playing Connor. Apparently, all these problems went away by S5 though because he mentioned that the set atmosphere was much better that year, as have other actors on the series.

When did he do this? Did CC say so in an interview?

straws

There are rumors he referred to her as "that fat actress" when she was pregnant.

Some happy for this thread:

Crystal Clear

GREAT SCENE! I loved 'Belonging' and Angel's protectiveness of Cordy when that jerk says gross things about wanting to sleep with her


Meh, I wasn't sold on Season 5, either.

The writing for Angel was best during Season 2, when Tim Minear was one of the head writers. I think they started bringing over some of the Buffy writers for S5 and whilst they were great writers for BTVS, I still didn't feel as connected to the characters anymore.

They did strange things with Lindsey in S5, which ruined his great final scene with Angel in Season 2's 'Dead End'. But they seemed set on killing everyone we cared about by the end of the show, so whatever

FuriosityShell

I somehow missed this line from that Tumblr post during my first readthrough, but I saw it now and had to comment on it.

WTF? Are white males not allowed to have opinions on the subject or something? If so, then I, as a white male, feel mighty stupid for offering mine.

There's actually a lot of stuff like that on Tumblr. I've seen many intelligent and interesting essays and such on Tumblr, not just on BtVS/AtS, but on other fandoms as well. But a lot of that insightful stuff gets lost and I end up coming across statements like that whenever I visit. People who call Whedon a homophobe for killing Tara off, people who bash Xander for ****-shaming/insulting Cordelia despite the fact that she insulted him just as much as he did her, who bash characters like Xander and Riley for committing the crime of being a straight white male with opinions, who bash Buffy, Cordy and Willow for "****-shaming" Faith and each other, people who misconstrue every. little. thing. and turn it into an excuse to go on a social justice rant, etc. It's exactly the kind of stuff that keeps me away from it, despite the fact that there's a lot of intelligent stuff and posters on there. Anyway...

That whole scene is just a great one for Angel's character. I love his excitement at being in the "sun", his shock (and obvious pleasure) when Cordy takes off her robe, his completely human anger at the director for disrespecting her. There are so many different sides of Angel's character that we rarely see that are brought out, as what often happens when Cordy is around.

Aww, Season 5 is my favorite season. But I do recognize its flaws. I completely agree about them screwing up bringing Lindsey back. I was pretty satisfied with his exit in "Dead End" and I thought it was cheapened by bringing him back to antagonize Angel like that. Though, I did appreciate his interactions with Spike, Angel and Cordy and his masquerading as Doyle as being like a throwback to the S1 days. Regarding the writers, Drew Goddard was the only BtVS writer to join the AtS staff in S5. Though, Steven S. DeKnight also previously wrote for BtVS S5-S6, but he joined the AtS staff a year earlier in S4. David Fury, like Greenwalt and Whedon, wrote/co-produced both series simultaneously. I also share your love for Season 2. I also think Minear was one of the better writers. I actually think he had a better grasp of Angel's character than any other writer (including Joss) did.

Ashes Fall

I don't understand that "white male" comment either and believe it out of line.
I also concur that Tumblr users are largely unintelligent haters.
Once, I admit I couldn't hold back a smackdown similar to this one but with less venom in response to a meme stating that Cordelia's absence of mention in s5 vs. Angel's 3-month demon monk punching retreat in 'Heartthrob' indicated that Buffy was still his true love.


As far as I'm concerned that dream was real in terms of it being Angel's innermost desires and I take great comfort in that.

The writers confirmed that this is precisely what that was, a de ja vu. So I was told.

Before I noticed the (idiotic pro-Bangel ) Youtube comment that led to said telling, I actually hadn't known that he was whispering at all much less what. It's almost entirely unintelligible so I'd assumed it was just a gasp or grunt.

With this, I disagree. Willow had no grounds from which to notice that something was off, she didn't know Cordelia at this point and to be fair getting pregnant from a one night stand (which is basically the impression Jordy gave her) isn't too surprising for the Cordelia she remembers. Xander was the exception, not the rule. She wasn't a relationship person nor a virgin prior to him.
(No, it's not established on the show that she wasn't a virgin, but I believe it was Furi who told me that for a kiss scene, Nick Brenden was told she wasn't when instructed on how Xander needed to treat her)

I used the term "I believe" to indicate that I could be incorrect but I thought I read somewhere that he did.
It's possible that she said it at the Dragon Con panel at which she discussed it, one of very few times she ever did. My mind keeps going there. It's been a while since I watched it though and I don't have a link. I didn't save it.
I am, however, pretty sure that she does mention that a lot of the cast and crew supported her and believed Joss out of line.

And Straws saves the thread again with an awesome GIF set.

Ah the 'Belonging' commercial, one of the best C&A scenes of all time! Angel wanting to rip that ***hole director's head off is unbelievably sexy! I kind of wish he'd done it, with or without Cordy's permission.

When Cordy strips the robe and Angel tries to look away but can't and judging by his face starts to get a boner, priceless!

Crystal Clear

I was thinking more in terms of Willow being an all-powerful witch who was able to restore Angel's soul, bring Buffy back from the dead, rip the skin off Warren, almost destroy the world, and cast a spell in Season 7 that prevents Buffy and Xander from seeing her when she arrives back in Sunnydale, just by THINKING it...

To me, it didn't matter that Willow hadn't seen Cordelia for a long time. They kept in touch; there were several crossover scenes where Cordy talked to Willow both in Season 1 and Season 2; Willow could FEEL the essence of nature within her, as she told Giles; that's how powerful she was. So, to me, it was inconceivable that she sensed NOTHING wrong with Cordelia. I mean, as we learn, Cordelia is completely lost within the shell of Jasmine, and Jasmine becomes an all-powerful being, so I would have thought that Willow of all people would sense something is seriously not right.

But I think I was expecting too much from a dull and frustrating season that was Angel Season 4. It was literally all over the place and didn't treat many of the characters in a dignified way.

I still think Angel should have been shown to have been suspicious of Cordelia all season.

BUT it is addressed in Inside Out, when he tells Wesley "...The thought of losing her to Connor" so yes, I suppose we are meant to believe that Angel was blinded by rage and confusion and jealousy to see anything beyond that.




The best part is back at the Hyperion hotel when Angel is still thinking about it, starts losing his temper, Gunn and Wesley are like "what the is wrong with you?!" and then Angel's like "he has Cordy wearing this bikini that covers, like... NOTHING..." and the three of them just stand there frothing at the mouths, minds going wild... Just great.

I loved these scenes where the guys re-bonded with each other in Season 2.

Jaime Bee

Love this & him wanting to rip the guy's head off.

Cordy: I hate my whole life.

How I relate to that line.

Ashes Fall

And the way Angel's twisting an ax handle around in his hands as he's talking.
If only Cordy had gotten there a minute sooner.

Jaime Bee

Carmen made a gif years ago with Angel holding the sword flashing back to Cordy in the bikini.



I have it saved somewhere.

straws

Belonging is iconic.

CC looks so incredible in her bikini.

Angel giving her a double take then trying not to look

Him threatening to rip the directors head right from his body

And I love that the director thought Angel was her boyfriend. That's about the only thing he did right.

Yaaaas at the S2 love.

S5 didn't feel like ATS at all to me. It felt like a different show with characters who happened to have the same names. I don't even think DB enjoyed playing Angel at that point.

Ashes Fall

Please please please find it!

I'm not sure who said this as I'm second-hand quoting it from Straws's post, but it's not quite accurate.
The point he made was that it was unacceptable that he didn't want to sleep with her.
He was degrading her, describing her as looking like "a refugee from an abused women's shelter" because she was still worn from having had food poisoning the previous night.
Wanting to want to sleep with her is how he described how she needed to be made up.

As do I but more so that neither of them argued it.

straws

I never even noticed that

Angel was mistaken for her boyfriend multiple times

Help me out guys, I wanna make a gifset of Angel carrying Cordy.

I know he carried her in the pilot
After Darla bit her
and in Birthday

Am I missing any moments?