[Alexa]

I don't remember. I watch so many shows at random times. But I do think it was during season 4 because I remember watching the finale live and hoping for an E/A ending...

Madison wasn't HORRIBLE to me but she was definitely in the wrong. I think when you are a teenager or young 20 year old maybe you can ignore it easer but I think the older you are the worse she looks.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Alexa (View Post) I don't remember. I watch so many shows at random times. But I do think it was during season 4 because I remember watching the finale live and hoping for an E/A ending... Madison wasn't HORRIBLE to me but she was definitely in the wrong. I think when you are a teenager or young 20 year old maybe you can ignore it easer but I think the older you are the worse she looks.

That's very true. I even remember a Madison fan, Ephram/Madison shipper saying she was young and not taking the situation seriously but if she were 15 years older and in Andy's shoes, she would have hated Madison and never would have allowed her son or daughter anywhere near a Madison. I really liked the Ephram/Madison fans on our board back in the day. They were awesome. Most of them understood the relationship was "wrong" so they were very honest and realistic. They named their ship "Jailbait" for a reason. I would post with them from time to time. They knew I hated her and didn't care either. We still got along just fine. They also never hated Amy either. It was a cool group and I appreciated their honesty. They knew they were in the minority and were okay with that.

[Alexa]

well exactly, if you are going to like them then you should recognize their faults too.

back in the day i liked them a little bit because i found their storyline sort of fun and the fact that it was wrong made it more exciting to me, but ive definitely grown out of finding those relationships fun and sexy and now just find them creepy lol.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by Alexa (View Post) well exactly, if you are going to like them then you should recognize their faults too. back in the day i liked them a little bit because i found their storyline sort of fun and the fact that it was wrong made it more exciting to me, but ive definitely grown out of finding those relationships fun and sexy and now just find them creepy lol.

LOL That's exactly what most EM fans said. So many mentioned they found the storyline fun even if they knew it was wrong.

My issue is when people try to question whether they were illegal or not. Berlanti, through multiple characters, clearly showcased the relationship as not legal. Madison, herself, was afraid to be seen with him. Her one friend commented on it being wrong. Andy and Amy mentioned this as well. I can't tell you how many have looked up laws in Colorado even though Everwood is a fictional town and Berlanti makes the rules.

[break the window]

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) LOL That's exactly what most EM fans said. So many mentioned they found the storyline fun even if they knew it was wrong. My issue is when people try to question whether they were illegal or not. Berlanti, through multiple characters, clearly showcased the relationship as not legal. Madison, herself, was afraid to be seen with him. Her one friend commented on it being wrong. Andy and Amy mentioned this as well. I can't tell you how many have looked up laws in Colorado even though Everwood is a fictional town and Berlanti makes the rules.

I'm glad it was addressed. It was wrong on many levels. It should've been more looked into and maybe outlawed. I would've been happy to have less screen time of them

[secretk]

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) My issue is when people try to question whether they were illegal or not. Berlanti, through multiple characters, clearly showcased the relationship as not legal. Madison, herself, was afraid to be seen with him. Her one friend commented on it being wrong. Andy and Amy mentioned this as well. I can't tell you how many have looked up laws in Colorado even though Everwood is a fictional town and Berlanti makes the rules.

This is where we differ for sure. I do not agree that Berlanti makes the rules because Everwood is not a sci-fi show. Everwood is supposed to be realistic drama show. Those laws are not town specific. They are state specific and even though Everwood was fictional town, it was not in a fictional state. And this real state had laws and Madison/Ephram were not illegal. And just like you I am the other way around. I would never see it as anything else because I hate when writers have to tell me times and times something. It only shows to me that they do not how to properly show it only through writing without spelling the things out. That is one nitpick that I would never overlook.

The irony is that I never liked EM and if there were not that many attempts to tell me something that I am supposed to see on my own I probably would have hated them or strongly disliked them. Just because they spelled it out so many times like I am sort of idiot and can't decide on myself, I ended up being indifferent to them. Hate writing like that.

I also hate when writers make all secondary characters flaunt over the protagonist and basically are all in love with them and forget every bad thing they do. I hate that. In general I do not like the writing style where the supporting characters would tell the viewer/reader how to feel and what to think. It just never works for me. And for me specifically this is why this angle of the storytelling did not work. If they had left out that part and just focus on how much different they are I would have liked it a lot more. Because for EM never fit for each other and that was enough for me. If they were in a state where it was illegal I would have accepted it more, but in this case it was just so not authentic and at some point it got annoying to me. Though maybe that was the point . Were they wrong from moral point of view - they were. But I never agreed with the legal angle because there was none.

But yeah it's funny how the same storytelling makes a lot of people hate EM and for me it's the other way around - it made me dislike them less just because I was annoyed with the writing. Luckily for Berlanti (and maybe most writers in general) not all people are like me. I am rare gem when it comes to stuff like that. I might end up liking something just to spite the writers because I was annoyed at the way they were making me dislike it. Weird way of processing things I know .

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by fulfilledღ (View Post) I'm glad it was addressed. It was wrong on many levels. It should've been more looked into and maybe outlawed. I would've been happy to have less screen time of them

It was absolutely wrong on so many levels.

All you needed to do was understand the dialogue and what was being said and the characters told us the Ephram/Madison relationship was illegal plain as day. Plus, going with what we feel as Americans and Berlanti showcased that in spades.

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by secretk (View Post) This is where we differ for sure. I do not agree that Berlanti makes the rules because Everwood is not a sci-fi show. Everwood is supposed to be realistic drama show. Those laws are not town specific. They are state specific and even though Everwood was fictional town, it was not in a fictional state. And this real state had laws and Madison/Ephram were not illegal. And just like you I am the other way around. I would never see it as anything else because I hate when writers have to tell me times and times something. It only shows to me that they do not how to properly show it only through writing without spelling the things out. That is one nitpick that I would never overlook.

Even if people still go with state by state laws it still goes back to the characters and the characters told us the relationship was illegal. Andy, Madison, Amy, Madison's friend, and Ephram told us the relationship was illegal. As a result, you either believe the characters and story or you don't. The relationship was illegal. It couldn't have been more clear. I just don't believe Berlanti thought it was necessary to do his homework. Plus, this show is based on American culture which makes it whole, not separate. As a rule, most Americans do not like the idea of an adult and child dating and I think that's what Berlanti was focusing on (American culture) more than anything else since Everwood is not just a family drama, it's an American family drama. Not many 16 year olds date 21 year olds in this country and if it happens it's very private and not in public. It's about the adult tag along with the ages that both are, not about the age difference since that age difference is nothing 7-10 years down the road. I couldn't imagine my one niece who is 15 and the other who is even 17 dating a 21 year old. My sister and brother-in-law would never in a million years allow something so illegal to transpire and they would feel the same even if Sara and Anna were boys too. Thus, Berlanti was speaking for most Americans and American culture as a whole which for me is the bigger deal and that's where the realism comes in.

Found this on wiki:

Even though state laws regarding the general age of consent and age gap laws differ, it is common for people in the United States to assume that sexual activity with someone under 18 is statutory rape.

^ Sums up American culture perfectly concerning this area and that's precisely what Berlanti was going by. Realism in spades concerning American culture. It would have been unrealistic and off the wall to demonstrate EM as "okay" as a result. It would have been stupid and in a way an insult to Americans and what we think as a whole when you truly break it down. Berlanti went with American culture which was completely realistic.

[secretk]

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) Even if people still go with state by state laws it still goes back to the characters and the characters told us the relationship was illegal. Andy, Madison, Amy, Madison's friend, and Ephram told us the relationship was illegal. As a result, you either believe the characters and story or you don't.

Yeah this is where we differ for sure. I believe that a good story telling is not numerous characters telling me something. I actually rarely believe when characters tell something on a show because I do like not such writing style. I like subtle writing where things are not spelled out. If it was once or twice I would have been OK with it. Repeated that many times it lost its appeal. And it makes me believe that the writers doubted that the fans would agree with the characters.

The relationship was illegal. It couldn't have been more clear. I just don't believe Berlanti thought it was necessary to do his homework. Plus, this show is based on American culture which makes it whole, not separate. As a rule, most Americans do not like the idea of an adult and child dating and I think that's what Berlanti was focusing on (American culture) more than anything else since Everwood is not just a family drama, it's an American family drama.

I am OK with not liking the relationship. Like I said there were a lot of reasons to not be in love with EM. I dislike the fact that they focused only one thing and repeated it numerous times. It made the whole story one-dimensional. There were lots of reasons to not think that Ephram/Madison are for each other.

But then again I also believe that writers should do their homework when it comes to such focal point in their storyline. If not fans like me will do it for them and will notice their errors. Thing like that is a simple few minutes search and reading in Wikipedia. And when a writers creates not one scene, but a whole storyline based on something, it better be authentic. Unless it's sci-fi. Then it should conform to the rules of the sci-fi world and not contradict with other stuff.

Not many 16 year olds date 21 year olds in this country and if it happens it's very private and not in public. It's about the adult tag along with the ages that both are, not about the age difference since that age difference is nothing 7-10 years down the road. I couldn't imagine my one niece who is 15 and the other who is even 17 dating a 21 year old. My sister and brother-in-law would never in a million years allow something so illegal to transpire and they would feel the same even if Sara and Anna were boys too. Thus, Berlanti was speaking for most Americans and American culture as a whole which for me is the bigger deal and that's where the realism comes in.

Like I said it's one thing for them to say we do not like this and totally different to repeat it numerous times that it's illegal when in fact that's not the case. This is why it got so annoying. If they are gonna repeat something over and over again, let it at least be true. I did not know the law to be honest, but I was obligated to check it out just because they mentioned it so many times. And just because they mentioned it that many times I started doubting it. If they had said in a lot of states in our country such relationship is illegal I would agreed with it because in most states it is illegal. Or if they had mentioned something like last year it would have been legal, but now it's not because so and so. Then it would have been authentic as well.

Found this on wiki: ^ Sums up American culture perfectly concerning this area and that's precisely what Berlanti was going by. Realism in spades concerning American culture. It would have been unrealistic and off the wall to demonstrate EM as "okay" as a result. It would have been stupid and in a way an insult to Americans and what we think as a whole when you truly break it down. Berlanti went with American culture which was completely realistic.

I do not argue that the relationship was not a good one for Ephram. I was for Ephram dating other person in Season 2. I did not think that Madison was a good choice. That being said there is big difference between this is culturally not accepted (which is true) and this is illegal (which is not true in this specific state). Also Ephram/Madison were not that public actually which was point specifically made. Madison understood this. Ephram did not.

There were a lot of problems in Ephram/Madison's relationship and I dislike the fact that they decided to blatantly focus on something that is not true instead of showing something authentic that is true.

So yeah illegal aspect would never work for me as a reason why E/M are wrong just because it was not done right. A lot other arguments would work, but this would not because it's a lie.

[jediwands]

American culture was hugely taken into account and the vast majority responded a certain way as a result. The Earth sign realist in me refuses to look up Colorado law regarding Everwood, Colorado, because no such place exists. In a moment of losing my realism, I'd still never even look it up because the characters told us what we needed to know anyway.

We can agree to disagree since we'll never see it the same way lol so this is all I'm going to say on the subject.

But as far as their relationship being illegal and that's why it was wrong... nah that was only the tip of the iceberg. Madison was insufferable and made Ephram miserable. There's endless other reasons why they didn't work in addition to the illegal aspect. People just didn't hate them for one thing... there were endless reasons why so many loathed Madison and hated Ephram/Madison. Berlanti brilliantly pointed everything out.