jediwands

100%. He even took many things out on Delia when he was upset. Yes, siblings go there, but she was just a little girl who recently lost her mom and in S2 he’s being really ridiculous at times with Delia, putting Madison first, and yelling at her when he’s pissed in general about stuff unrelated to her, leaving for Europe knowing it crushed her since she viewed it as being abandoned and not knowing (in her mind) if she’d ever see him again. What he did to Amy was inexcusable and he even confirms this early S4. It was really awful watching it all play out. I know some will say look at how Amy treated Ephram in S1… big difference… they were not together romantically, hadn’t slept together, didn’t give their hearts to each other. Yes, it wasn’t pleasant at times but completely different situations. When they got together at the end of S2, Amy was ALL IN. She was so loyal, kind, supportive, loving. She lost her virginity to him. Amy did not deserve his treatment no matter what, which is why I was fine with her taking a while in S4 before she could fully trust he wouldn’t break her heart again.

Jerry D

There is absolutely no comparison between the way that Amy treated Ephram in Season One and how Ephram treated Amy in Season Three. Yes initially she befriended Ephram to have him convince Andy to operate on Colin, and when Colin first came back she ghosted Ephram for a short time but we all saw that she was torn between her feelings for Ephram and her feelings for Colin, and she was never as mean to Ephram as he was to her at the end of Season Three. He was very lucky that she even considered getting back with him after what he did to her, and I'm still dreading watching these upcoming episodes where we see him break her heart.

jediwands

Exactly. There is no comparison between the way Amy treated Ephram in S1 versus how Ephram treated Amy in S3. Amy certainly tried to use him initially but this was before they even met. She had this plan in place because she was desperate to save Colin’s life. But the second Amy and Ephram were near each other Amy immediately started caring about Ephram. She was still on a mission to get Andy’s help (who wouldn’t have given the circumstances and Andy’s expertise). From the moment she interacted with Ephram their connection got started. Ephram even played Amy in S1, lying that he asked Andy which was such a cruel thing to do. A life was on the line and he was playing jealous games. Even then Amy never ignored or dropped Ephram out of her life. Yes, after Colin came back temporarily Amy was frantic with confusion because she didn’t want anyone finding out about the intimate moments she shared with Ephram. But Ephram and Amy maintained a closeness. In Vegetative State she wanted to be with Ephram romantically even.

S3, they were together in every way. Amy gave her heart, mind, soul and yes, body (her Virginity) to Ephram. The level of seriousness between them was at an all-time high with everything to lose. They were in a committed romantic relationship. She sacrificed so much for his piano talent. She gave up normal dating moments while he practiced, Ephram even wanted her in NYC with him during the audition because he viewed the success as a “together” accomplishment. Which is why I don’t understand how he was shocked she fought like hell to get him another audition. She was connected to his piano playing and future success (he viewed them as a team), he knew this. Of course then he basically told her she was less important, not seeing a forever, dumping her, leaving for Europe knowing her mother was battling cancer.

No comparison and I don’t look forward to the rest of S3 and his behavior either.

Alexa

I dont think he expected anything though? Amy is the one that offered. Having sex with an adult women is weird, yes, but it happened, and she got pregnant, and that is just the facts of the situation. There is nothing that can erase that now. So holding a grudge or being upset about that forever is useless.

Also, people found it weird that he wanted to see his kid? Really? I don't find that weird or to be a bad idea at all. That is EXACTLY what i would want to do...


Because Andy is a doctor??? And she probably wanted someone to tell her her options/comfort her a bit before telling Ephram, who she knew would react emotionally. I dont think she ever expected for Andy to ask her to keep it a secret and pay her to leave. Andy approved of their relationship by basically saying it was fine for them to date after finding out about them, so it makes sense Madison went to him...

I do agree she would have gone to Ephram no matter what if she REALLY wanted to. Even after Andy's threats. Thats what i would have done. but its pretty clear she was scared and intimidated by Andy. And she listened to what he said to her about ruining Ephram's life.


I do think it would have been a mess had Madison told Ephram about the baby, and i also think that they wouldnt have agreed on what to do. i think Ephram would have pushed for an abortion though. And I think Madison probably would have been more inclined to go wit it wth the pressure of Ephram's insistance. Or, maybe they would ahve decided to keep it and try to raise it. i dont see the adoption plan happening though if Ephram knew about it, but maybe... maybe an open adoption though.

Jerry D

I don't see Ephram wanting Madison to have an abortion if he found out about the pregnancy right away. I think that he would be rightfully upset and unsure of what to do, and he'd want to see what Madison wanted to do and he might postpone being with Amy while they figured everything out. I think that ultimately he and Madison might have decided to put the baby up for adoption anyway, and although it would have taken an emotional toll on both of them, Ephram wouldn't have felt betrayed like he did. By that point Ephram and Madison had mutually agreed that they couldn't be together, but obviously him finding out that she was pregnant with his child would have really complicated things between them.

I will say that Andy was dead wrong to treat Madison like he did, and the whole Madisongate storyline was just designed to create sensationalistic drama, and I hated that the show took that route.

jediwands

I guess I just wish Ephram would have told Amy he needed space instead of how it turned out. He asked for her help when he showed up at her door late that night. I am not sure still what he meant as far as help. Since the minute he got up the next day he was already sick of her to be blunt. He didn't even want to be bothered, under Harold and Rose's roof. It felt weird to me. He should have told her he needed space on his own. That way he wouldn't have hurt Amy. He obviously used Andy's credit cards without hesitating so he could have stayed at a hotel that night instead of at the Abbott's.

I would want to know the child was okay, most certainly. I wouldn't trust Madison with anything so would want to double check. But I would also honor the adopted parents because the transaction already happened. I never would have shown up at their door demanding to see the kid in other words, it would be devastating for everyone involved. I would have gone behind the scenes and investigated and maybe eventually contacted the adopted the parents to see if I could see the baby. So I understand Ephram's need to check out the situation.

Andy initially demanded that they not go through with the relationship. When they both refused to honor his wishes, then he had the conversation with Madison and begged her not to hurt him. Which... she obviously did, in endless ways.

But you're right, I don't think Madison ever imagined Andy was going to ask her to keep the baby a secret. Still, if I'm in her position, the last person I go to is Andy since he begged me not to make any of the mistakes I clearly made, and I would have found a different option. There's plenty of other doctors and planned parenthoods in the Denver area to choose from. She also could have gone to Jake if it was just for medical advice. She obviously went to Andy for more than medical advice. Then when it was confirmed, I would have gone straight to Ephram since he was the father. He was a minor but a minor that got her pregnant. If he was mature enough to get her pregnant, then he should have been mature enough to handle the news from day 1.

I wonder why she was so scared and intimidated by Andy. That is what gets me. She never was before. Although I guess getting pregnant and not knowing what you are going to do brings out another level of scared so that does make sense. But yes, going to Ephram from the start was the best option. 100%.

Yeah. I could definitely have seen a scenario of Ephram asking Andy if he could help him raise the baby.

jediwands

I did not like it either. We all know Madison did a trillion things wrong. My God, under the eyes of the law, consensual or not, she "raped" Ephram. She certainly did so many things wrong, not to mention being hired by Andy and doing what she did with Ephram. What a nightmare.

But that said, Alexa does have a great point... what was done was done... it happened.

So totally agree with you that once the news came out, Andy was in the wrong treating Madison like he did.

So true, Jerry... Madisongate was a terrible storyline, the worst one, in an otherwise pretty perfect series. It's so unfortunate, because the story lingered and affected so many of the main characters.

jediwands

Question:

Would you guys have preferred Madison telling Ephram immediately at the end of S2 which would have caused Ephram and Amy to be delayed romantically even more and not officially romantically together until way later, maybe not even until S4?

Jerry D

I would have much preferred that. Yes, it might have delayed Ephram and Amy getting together, but Ephram wouldn't have felt betrayed like he did, and he wouldn't have taken it out on Amy and broken her heart.

You brought up a good point Michelle about Ephram being mature enough to get her pregnant, then he should have been mature enough to handle the news from Day 1, but to me Ephram wasn't mature enough to be in a relationship with Madison, and although he was physically able to get her pregnant, he didn't have the maturity or the emotional stability to be in a sexual relationship with her let alone handle her being pregnant, or handle raising a child with her, and I don't know of any 17 year old boy who would have that maturity and emotional stability in that situation.

Ephram had just gotten together with Amy romantically when Madison revealed to Andy that she was pregnant, so it could have put a hold on his relationship with Amy, and Ephram was still pretty hung up on Madison at that point, so that might have complicated things as well, so I honestly don't know how all that would have played out.

jediwands

I completely agree. It would have been better for everyone involved. Ephram doesn’t hurt Amy (at all), he doesn’t get mad at Andy, he doesn’t bolt for Europe upsetting Delia and abandoning Amy and Bright during Rose’s cancer.

It might’ve caused fighting between Ephram and Madison and prevented Ephram from going to Juilliard. Who cares. LOL. We know he didn’t even want classical piano or Juilliard and certainly who cares about any fighting or drama between a not romantically together anymore, Ephram and Madison.

Amy could have dated a nice guy throughout the drama. Not a Colin type and certainly, Tommy type, but it could have been kind of like Ephram and Laynie… cute, fun, never serious and we would know Amy still had romantic feelings for Ephram.

Indeed.

I was being passive aggressive/sarcastic with the maturity and if he was mature enough to create a baby he was emotionally mature enough to handle the news with proper intellectual capability on how to best handle the situation.

Of course he wasn’t ready. But it happened so he deserved to know. Who knows, maybe if he would’ve found out right away from Madison then he would have apologized to Andy for not listening to a word of fatherly advice he gave him at the beginning of S2 regarding the very inappropriate relationship he wanted with Madison.

I feel like the pregnancy revelation would have sunk Ephram and Madison even more. LOL.

Even in NYC, Ephram questioned if Madison STILL thought he was too immature and boyish. If Madison told him at the end of S2, we can be sure she would have continued disrespecting him and acting like he was too immature for his opinions to matter.

I think we might have been able to grab some popcorn and watch a really good drama while they fought it out with lots of tears, yelling and chaos.

At least Amy, Andy, Delia wouldn’t have been in the line of fire this way.

Jerry D

To me, if they had to introduce a pregnancy drama, this would have been a much better way to do it than having it be a ticking time bomb that was always in the background from the end of Season Two through most of Season Three, and when that time bomb exploded, it did incalculable damage to all the key relationships in the show, and the characters, and us, spent most of Season Four trying to recover from the events at the end of Season Three.

Oh, okay, I understand now!

Yes it probably would have.

That's an excellent point and it's all very true.

Exactly.

Alexa

Wait, what? I didn't see that scene this way at all. I didn't get the vibe Ephram was "sick" of Amy whatsoever. To me, it felt like Harold didnt want him there and was making that very obvious, so Ephram wanted to get out of their hair. I dont think that he wanted space from Amy until after all the juliard stuff when he realized that she cared more about his schooling then his child. And also learning she already knew about it. I think he went to Amy's initially because she is is g/f and he wanted comfort in the situatiom. but after learning she already knew about it, he rightfully felt betrayed.

I wouldn't "honor the transaction" because it wasnt a transaction that Ephram made... it wasn't his decision. I do agree though that going right up to the door was not the way to go about it. But I dont see him telling the kid or anything who he was right away. i could however see him trying to speak with the adoptive parents.

Ephram really has other options. He doesnt need to do this himself, he could go to the authorities and tell them about the situation and find other ways to potentially regain custody of his child. He had the right to at the VERY LEAST have visitation rights if thats what he wants.

Which is Andy giving in and accepting he relationship. He didn't have to do that. He could have told Madison to leave or he would alert authorities, which is what I would have done if it were my child. Hell, I would have reported her regardless. But Andy didnt do either of things, he rolled over and let them be together which was weird enough... so I dont think its unbelievable to think that Madison thought Andy would roll over about the pregnancy too. I genuinely feel like she went to him expecting him to comfort her and be there for her instead of kind of antagonizing her.


I would have rather he found out right away. He made a mistake but needed to deal with the consequences. And Ephram deserved to learn the truth about Madison. Believe it or not, I personally think Amy would have been more understanding about the news back then because it would have allowed them 9 months to have the news sink in and give Amy the decision to determine if she really wanted to be with Ephram or not. Finding out about the baby later only did a disservice to everyone imo.

This. lmao.

It is interesting to think though if that would have prevented e/a from getting together for a much longer period... very interesting.

It really put a damper on the whole series because we all knew it was still there in the background and it was hard to even enjoy E/A knowing that news was going to come out eventually. If i had to watch this in real time i would ahve been very annoyed with this storyline.

jediwands

I could be wrong but when she kissed or hugged him in that scene I felt like he slightly cringed. He was already in the mode of I hate my dad and I’m on a mission. Rightfully so he’s not going to be in a great mood but it seemed to me like he really wanted to be left alone and once again, rightfully so, which is why maybe it was best if he told Amy right away he needed space to think.

Completely agree.

I think you’re right and she believed this too.

Do you think she wanted Andy to tell Ephram? Do you think she wanted help as far as how to tell Ephram or it was more about what to do regarding the pregnancy?

100%.



Right? It was awful… which is why I was super spoiled ahead of time.

jediwands

Completely agree.

In a way, it was like on Dawson’s Creek the countdown to Dawson finding out about Pacey/Joey. Madisongate took much longer but overall I remember watching Dawson’s Creek just waiting for when Dawson and Andie found out and then the aftermath took forever. Madisongate affected the show as a whole in this way too.

jediwands

Reminder:

We are on hiatus until: August 7th... which will be 3.19.