filmdk

Are you Pacey/Joey fan or a Dawson/Joey fan and why?

ETA: Since shipper discussion can get heated quite quickly, we would like to remind you all to remain respectful towards other posters. You can say why you like & dislike a couple, but please refrain from bashing

Thank you all,

your moderators Jess & Anka

Ankatje

There are already a few threads about this topic, but since they are all really old, I'll leave this one open and we can discuss it here!

I am a Pacey Joey fan. At first I liked DJ, but as the seasons passed I always felt like, despite their love being strong and genuine, that they didn't make each other happy when they were a couple. They did as friends, but as a couple they just fought all the time and were miserable together. Pacey & Joey however, they seemed to just work. Of course the way they ended in season 4 was horrible, but I always felt that they still cared. They didn't hold grudges and they got over it. And in the end they ended up together
Of course, another reason for me is the chemistry. The PJ chemistry was just way better imo.

Thanks for starting this discussion!

filmdk

I'm DJer. I am a firm believer in soul mates. The power of their love was able to survive up and downs, and even with other people they were able to continue loving one another. I really like the character of Pacey Witter even tough I more closely relate to Dawson. However I always felt the relationship with Joey brought him him down. It was annoying to me in season 4 how ever third word out of his mouth was Dawson. I also love Pacey and Andy.

Ankatje

I absolutely agree about Dawson and Joey being soulmates, there is no doubt possible there in my opinion. However, that doesn't mean I think they should be in a romantic relationship. I think that their love is a different kind of love, less romantic and more, maybe on a higher level, or something. I think they will always love each other, they have overcome so much. But I did not want them to end up together, because I feel that they are better for each other as friends then they are in a relationship.

It's true that there were some issues in PJs relationship in S4, but I think that's normal considering how it started and what the backstory is. I love how they got over it and always kept each other in their hearts. Once Pacey became more confident in the later seasons, I knew that they would work perfect as a couple

msstock87

I have always been a P/J fan. I liked Dawson and Joey as friends, I think they had a very special friendship, however I feel that once the romantic element was brought in, it ruined everything for them.

I liked watching Joey and Pacey's relationship grow from despising each other to being in love with each other. I liked seeing it all play out.

I also don't think your soulmate has to be your lover, it could be your best friend. I also believe you may have more than one soulmate.

ChristinaL80

That's what I love most about Pacey and Joey's relationship, besides the awesome chemistry. They evolved and grew together. Yeah they fought and broke up, but I think their issues were realistic.

I did like Dawson and Joey in the very beginning. Maybe because I could relate to Joey and wanted her to get the guy. But they stayed the same throughout the series. They could have a good friendship. I'm not going to touch the soulmate aspect. lol Don't want to get too negative in here.

BTW, I'm for PJ.

VaNderBeEkFreAk

For me it's the other way around,
i love pacey and joey's friendship/ flirts...but their relationship was soooooo dramatic! They should have kept it more fun.
And as much as i hate it, same thing happened with dawson and joey. Great friendship but a love made too complicated. Still prefer D/J but don't think the show did all the amazing built-up from Season 1 any justice.

taubman

This thread is hard to read..

Why DJ!! hmm well the season 1 pretty much! First scene between DJ i knew something special was happening..Season 1 felt like a Dawson's Creek Movie

Story from season 1 to season 6 was always going to be them. It was based on KW's life with his friend and we all knew the direction was heading..but KW left after season 2 so that left that in doubt!

All these relationships happened between all different couples but one thing stuck through out the series and it was DJ connection even when they where not close at stages..it was the bond..the friendship..the love and those smiles..the nervousness. It was something different to any other couple..a journey very enjoyable!

My theory on PJ..Besides my days fighting agains PJ fans on the DVD thread's.

Of course it was going to happen at some stage..which I was fine with but season 1 told the story..PJ where not even on the radar...and always knew it wouldn't and shouldn't of worked out due to how pacey was..his character was always about him and would always end in trouble. Point the Series Finale and the punch up.. Only reason PJ had soo much pull was of course Fanbase and Writers and Crew(Katie/Josh) supported that..And of course james got alienated post season 3 which then he didn't have as much interest..Always popularity wins these days and common sense goes out the window..

but what makes me sleep at night is knowing DJ will always be the story and is always end game. Its new fans that come along via FF and watch the show knowing nothing and their first instant reaction is DJ should end together..the other cast/crew and media knowing it should of been DJ post series finale..Kevin Deep down know it should of been DJ but due to publicity and for media purposes and to hide his true feelings. Even Since Katie broke up with Tom all those media article saying time to get back with Dawson!!

Its things like that makes me smile knowing DJ are far more compelling than PJ and will always be remembered..When we talk Dawson's creek..first thing comes to mind is DJ!

Thats why I'm DJ!...Since 98 and beyond!

I have more reasons but they are the most that come to mind..for the moment!

DJ always.

jarlath1

Dawson and Joey. That is what the entire series was about, that was how the end of the series was envisioned, and that was what should have happened. There are so many reasons to support this couple, but let me just concentrate on one for this post: for the sake of Pacey Witter.

Pacey might actually be the character I liked best - he was funny, intelligent, caring, energetic, non-judgemental, and had plenty of other good characteristics. Joey just wasn't good for him. When he was with Joey, he just felt bad for a great deal of the time, and for understandable reasons. She clearly saw him as a loveable dork who was never going to be Dawson's equal. It was not surprising to me that week after week he kept bringing up Dawson and every week they got into some stupid fight. Completely without meaning to, Joey communicated to him that he was Dawson's inferior, which is why he told her: 'You make me feel like nothing'. To me, there is no way of coming back from a comment like that. Later, in Season 6, when they got together again, she dumped him...for Eddie, with the comment, 'I don't feel it'. They certainly had great sexual chemistry, I don't think anyone could deny that, but that was all they had. Pacey will always know that Dawson is her soul mate, and, as a heterosexual male, I don't buy that he could be happy with that. I don't know any man who would be comfortable knowing that the woman he was with was actually the soul mate of another man, one she used to date and still kept in contact with, Right there you have in-built insecurity, and we know that Pacey does not do well with insecurity. Because I really wanted Pacey to be happy, I wanted him to end up with someone other than Joey (a girl who agonised over her break up with Dawson for years, but who just got over her break up with Pacey in about two weeks - remember in Castaways, Pacey reminded her that she just moved on from him, whereas she was tortured over Dawson forever - it clearly hurt). In what universe will a relationship between Joey and Pacey work? certainly not in the Dawson's Creek universe.

There are plenty of other reasons to support D/J that are intrinsic to their own dynamic, but the future misery of Pacey seems to me to be a compelling reason to genuinely wish that he had not ended up with a woman who just doesn't 'feel it'.

jarlath1

Ah, the old arguments are the best!

D/J and P/J shippers will never agree, I expect, but I think we should at least try to look as honestly as we can at the show to assess the dynamic between these two couples.

I don't believe in soulmates, and think I would run a mile from anyone who told me she thought I was her's. However, in the Dawson's Creek universe, soulmates exist, and Dawson and Joey were supposed to be the main representatives of this concept (I realise that Jen/Jack were also mentioned to be soulmates, but this was a last-minute, finale thing, whereas D/J was there from the start). A great deal of the series was taken up with trying to figure out what this idea actually means, and it is a fuzzy concept so it is no wonder that things got a bit confused. It does appear, though, to mean something 'unearthly' or 'transcendent' in the context of this series. Just one example: I think we were meant to take seriously the comments of the fortune teller in Season 2, who said to Dawson something like 'you have known each other many lifetimes', etc, etc. Now, again, I don't personally believe in fortune telling in real life, but my impression is that this comment was meant to be taken seriously by the viewers. Likewise, when Dawson says to Joey at the very end of the series, something like 'it doesn't matter who you choose because it will always be you and me', I think we are to take this seriously as indicating that on some metaphysical level, they are bonded forever. Ok, I think that this is relatively uncontentious and should be uncontroversial.

Here is my contention (one, P/J shippers will likely reject, but I'll put it out there anyway): these soulmates also have the hots for each other, and have found each other sexually satisfying as well as emotionally, psychologically, intellectually, spiritually fulfilling. In other words, they satisfy every aspect of each other. That is not to say that they don't get such things from other people as well. Clearly Joey finds Pacey sexually and emotionally fulfilling but...not intellectually or spiritually fulfilling. Likewise, Dawson clearly found Jen sexually and intellectually fulfilling, but not emotionally or spiritually. Given all this, can they really ever be happy with someone else, knowing that the soulmate who satisfies them in every way is out there? I don't buy it, it won't work, and everyone is going to be miserable until the correct alignment is made.

And I say again, my reading of this is completely independent of my personal beliefs - I think the whole soulmate stuff is just nonsense in reality, but a television show is not reality, so I am prepared to suspend disbelief and let the show operate according to the rules it has set up. And this is why I don't think that P/J will ever ever work long term

Ankatje

I really loved reading all your opinions, it's great that there is so much discussion going on here!

First of all I have to agree with those who said the series was written for Dawson & Joey to be together. It was their love story, or at least that's what it should have been if they had stuck to their intention. They had a spiritual connection that would bind them forever. They just knew each other as well as someone can truly know anyone else. Even when they spend time apart it always felt safe to be together. It made sense. I won't deny that they were attracted to each other, although for me, there was no chemistry. But they were the perfect match. On paper. It wasn't fun, it wasn't exciting, it was... obvious. That's one of the reason I couldn't get into it - they didn't spark together.

Now, it would be ridiculous to say that there was less drama between Pacey & Joey than there was between Dawson & Joey. The difference for me was the fact that PJ's drama felt real, it felt like the fights any couple with that story would have. With Dawson, I had the feeling they just created drama where it wasn't needed. They doubted each other and their potential all the time, it was always, always something. I think there was just too much pressure, they expected too much and it ruined them.

In the end I can argue or debate all I want - whether you like a couple or not, it's just a feeling. It's not objective, it's subjective. It's not rational, it's emotional.
Apart from all the rest, what did it for me was the fact that PJ scenes made me smile, made me happy to watch. They touched me. DJ scenes just didn't have the same effect on me

rorygirl

I completely agree with you Anka that Pacey and Joey's drama always felt real!

This is my take on things.

Yes Kevin Williamson began with the intention of Dawson and Joey being Endgame, I mean the show is Dawson's Creek, afterall. BUT he realized that the characters he'd written and the show had a life of their own separate from his own life.

Pacey and Joey = True Love. NO QUESTION.

Dawson to be honest ended up being my least favorite character of the show. And all the people I know in real life who watched Dawson's Creek agree that after a while it was kind of ironic that he was the title character.

Pacey and Joey always felt so so real. I mean I think Pacey is what so many girls who fall for guys that aren't good for them are actually looking for. They don't really want a 'bad guy' but they want someone who isn't blah and boring.

There was of course a connection with Dawson and Joey, but a friendship of the deepest level. There is no chemistry and that can be awkward with boy/girl friendships. But the real deeper friendship because it transcended friendship and was True Love is Pacey and Joey.

jarlath1

I can't let a statement like Pacey + Joey = True Love. NO Question, go without a challenge.

Of course there are questions, since quite a large body of the show's fans think that this was a serious mistake by the writers. Not a majority of the fans, I accept, but such a large number that there will always be serious questions standing over the show. Kevin Williamson admits, in interviews and in the commentary for the final episodes, that he understood that a huge body of the fans would be very disappointed by the ending and would not accept it. He says, in fact, that his father and one of his sisters told him that he was wrong to end it the way he had. So, plenty of questions.

It seems like a lot of people just didn't like Dawson, and couldn't care about what happened to him. Well, that is fair enough - he was a character who appealed to a smaller section than Pacey, and in Season 3 the writers did a number of him (which they tried to come back from, but it never really worked). What I ask is that people look at the show as objectively as possible and ask themselves: will Pacey and Joey work? and, Is a Pacey/Joey ending the right one for this series? I just don't buy the ending, it doesn't make any sense when looked at in terms of the show as a whole, and I fear that Pacey will have a broken heart again somewhere very soon in his fictional future.

OutoftheWoods

Once again, well-said jarlath1.

I don't ship either D/J or P/J.

With D/J, I like them being best friends. I feel like that was the point of the show, to show how after everything they went through, they still ended up being best friends, soulmates.

And with P/J, just no. I feel like Pacey could do so much better than Joey (ahem, Andie). P/J are always going through problems and arguments, and like jarlath said, I just cannot see them being together in a long and happy life in the future. True Love? I don't think so, there's too much conflict between them to be classified as True Love. And in Season 5 after they broke up, they had no connection. It was like their relationship together never happened, you know? If they were True Love, there would have still been something there, but there wasn't.

Pandie on the other hand... Okay sorry, this thread isn't about them so I won't get into it.

clarkson_fan

I will always always forever and freaking ever be a Pacey/Joey shipper. I think they are my OTP to end all OTPs.

I think that is mostly not only because their relationship was amazing, but because they kind of actually set the example for me. I'm not saying that the couples I ship are always similar to them, but most of the time I find similarities between other couples I ship and them. Not always so much that they are like a parellel to PJo, but enough that it always seems to make me ship a couple all the more.

I don't know what exactly it is about PJo, but I think, to me, their relationship was as realistic as a relationship could be in Dawson's Creek. I love that. I think I'm a realist, I believe that I try to see the reality of things all the time.

I might let myself fantasize while reading books or fanfiction or watching TV or movies, but in when it comes to real life, I'm well, realistic.

And I know PJo are apart of a TV show, but I just love when TV shows touch on some realism.

To me, I think Dawson and Joey always lived in this fantasy with each other. They always imagined what their relationship would be like, they always imagined that it would be this amazing, epic relationship, and I think it always fell flat, and that whenever they broke-up, a part of them realized that. But it just took until the series finale for them to realize the whole, to realize that while they might be best friends (I'm sorry, I do not like the term "soulmates") forever, that they would never actually be able to make a real relationship work.

With Pacey and Joey, I feel that they were able to work at it, that they knew it was hard, but they loved each other enough to try. They never were exactly "soulmates" to each other. They never thought they were destined to be together from the start, they actually hated each other at first. (Although, I don't think they truly hated each other).

I think that's one of the reasons they appeal to me so much. (Not just for the love/hate relationship, even though I'm a sucker for those) They never put this label on themselves, they never imagined that it would be perfect and amazing and epic. They were just two people in love, who still fought and had their problems, but could still work through them at the end of the day.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Dawson and Joey couldn't live up to the expectations they and others put upon them, that they didn't really love each other that way, and that their relationship was too unrealistic to survive in the real world.

Pacey and Joey's was. To me, at least.