Pace & Jo

Ok, I disagree. Pacey emotinally blackmailing Joey? He wasn't trying to blackmail her, he wanted to know if she could ever love him liked she loved Dawson. I didn't know wanting to find out if he stood a chance was considered blackmail.

I don't blame PJ for not telling Dawson about their relationship right away. They were still trying to figure out what it was for themselves. Also, I think they both knew how Dawson would react. They were trying to find the best possible way to tell Dawson they had fallen for one another. I wouldn't say Dawson should apologize for lashing out bc that is just his personality and he was hurt. But I also think that he was wromg for forgiving Joey in season 4 and not Pacey.

Joey has never been a puppeteer. People fall in and out of love all the time. Joey is the kind of person that when you fall in love with her, it's very hard to stop. I don't think she strung them along, I just think they never got over her.

Sugz

Did I ever say he wanted Pacey dead? Of course not. But Pacey actually had to turn his boat out of the way to get out of the way of Dawson who was coming right at him and said "Im not getting out of his way". So obvioulsy physical injury was not an issue to Dawson. I didnt say anything about him wanting Pacey dead.

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And Dawson was the only one who wanted to 'win' Joey under the guise of friend? What about Pacey emotionally blackmailing her? 'Can you ever love me like that? A soulmate.' When he was saying he'll be there for her or whatever. They both were!

How is that question blackmail!? He honestly wanted to know if he even had a remote chance with Joey and directly after that question, when he saw the pained look on Joeys face what did he do? He retracted it and told her "No ultimatums". Yet Dawson threatens to take his friendship away from Joey if she doesnt do what he says and you peg Pacey for blackmail? Gimme a break.

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And why should Dawson apologise for lashing out? If Pacey or Joey had told him the truth in the first place instead of being deceitful he wouldn't've had to!

First, they tried to tell him the truth, The Longest Day was based on Pacey and Joey trying to tell Dawson the truth, they never get any credit for that, its not as if they wanted him to find out from anyone else but them. And lashing out and being hurt is very different form carrying on for 4 episodes trying as hard as you can to get your way with no regard for your two closest friends. I dont see how you dont see the difference between someone being hurt and lashing out and what Dwwson did in season 3. He went far and above the call of duty. LAshing out wouldve been his TLD tangent, anything beyond that is simply unnecessary.

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Dawson was hurt and angry and didn't think before he acted. For a few weeks. Joey has been yanking these boys like puppets for years. Leading each one on and then going back to the other.

She didnt do it to hurt them though! Thats my point. Joeys mistakes werent intentional to hurt anyone, Dawson time and time again said things to people, Pacey especially to tear them down and thats not cool. Joey may have let each guy on too but I have far more sympathy for her because she was trying her best to keep everyone happy while she made her own mistakes.

coldwater1010

I may be missing something here, but I'm sorry I can't see how you can compare Dawson threatening to end his friendship with Joey if she chose to be with Pacey, especially since he knew what that would mean to her to, with Pacey asking if she could love him like a soulmate? He wasn't using his friendship as a bargaining chip and atleast he backed off when she asked him too.


The point was they were planning on telling him the truth. A fact he knew when Joey came to his room because Jen told him as much. Wasn't that the whole point of his skewed interpretation of the Last Picture Show? To warn Joey what would happen if she said anything. They weren't deliberately trying to hurt him and while I think they should have told him as soon as they decided to be together a big part of the reason why they didn't was precisely because they didn't want to hurt him and they wanted to put that off as long as possible.Stupid maybe. But I don't think that in anyway compares with how Dawson behaved. I don't think he intended to kill anyone in the boat race, but I think the fact was he was hurt and because he'd been hurt that was all that mattered to him. The fact was he didn't care about whether other people were hurt by his actions or not all that mattered to him was how everything affected him. He completely crossed the line and the fact that he never really appreciated that fact was always a problem for me.

And as for Joey supposedly leading them both on. How is that any different from Dawson putting her on hold for almost a whole year and then expecting her to be waiting for him when he was ready to get back together with her or chosing to hook up with Jen and sleep with her and then after they broke up expecting Joey to be waiting in the wings for him.

newmom5497

<<<<<Umm no offense but I dont really think that you can flick off season3 as an afterthought in your post because thats what we're talking about, thats the very reason why most of us are not inclined to like him. In season 3 he WAS malicious, hurt isnt the word to use, he became malicious because he was hurt. Do you agree that malicious is attempting to take away your friendship from a person when you know very well that will manipulate them into doing exactly what you want them to do, something Dawson did more than once in more than one season. Do you agree that malicious is not caring whatsoever about the physical and emotional well being of an (ex) best friend because you didnt get your way and or telling someone you'll be a friend to them when you're just trying to set up a situation to win their affections when they explicitly said to you that they dont want to be won? These are things that made a big red mark on Dawsons personality. These were perhaps the most selfish things of the series, yet people blame Joey for being too selfish?

[B]First off...no offense taken
To answer some of your other questions....no, I do not agree that the word "malicious" can define the things Dawson did at the end of Season 3 to Joey and Pacey. I still see it as Dawson being Dawson... very dramatic and trying to hang on to the one thing in his life that he held true to his heart---Joey. I really like Pacey, so this is by no means a Pacey-slam(and as I stated many times before, I loved the whole triangle storyline and the Pacey/Joey romance), but I still contend that Pacey knew that the one girl in the world that was off-limits as far as his and Dawson's friendship was concerned(and should have been off-limits) was Joey. I totally agreed with Dawson in Show Me Love when he told Pacey that Pacey knew that Dawson thought of Joey as his soulmate..but he went after her anyway.(Both in Season 1 and Season 3 actually).
If Dawson was so "malicious" in Season 3....why would he even have cared about Joey's well-being at all? He wouldnt have asked Pacey to take care of her/look out for her in Like a Virgin, would he? Or if he was "malicious"(like Drue Valentine "malicious" or Abby Morgan "malicious") I think he wouldn't have thought twice about sleeping with Joey when she offered herself to him...he would have done it in a second.
Inmature..yes; hurt..yes; whiney..yes; childish behavior..yes. All of these things I would use to describe Dawson's behavior at times in Season 2/3...but not malicious. I just can't even begin to put him in the same category as characters such as Abby Morgan or Drue.
Quite honestly...I see what Joey did to Dawson at the end of Season 2(when he turned her dad in)...or how/why Pacey broke up with Joey in Promicide, much more hurtful and degrading to their characters, than how Dawson acted at the end of Season 3.
You could argue that its because I am a Dawson-fan that I am being blind, and I can totally see where some of his behaviors/characteristics were annoying(his "holier than thou" type attitudes sometimes, or his idealistic ways about how people in his life should act....my husband can't stand Dawson because of that and won't even watch the show when I watch it)...but I just never could see why people think his behaviors were mean/malicious.....comparing him to Drue/Abby whose characters were written to be specifically nasty.

coldwater1010

I have to say I have a problem with this statement for a number of reasons. 1) Because it seems to imply that Joey is Dawson's property and so no matter what he's doing Joey is automatically off limits. In s1 Joey wasn't Dawson's girlfriend. He may have had feelings for her, but he was chasing after Jen at the time so I'm not sure why Pacey needed Dawson's permission to ask her out. And if Pacey needed to make sure that Dawson would be ok with him hooking up with Joey at the time then shouldn't the same rules apply to Dawson since he knew Pacey also liked Joey. Shouldn't he have been obligated to make sure Pacey would be ok with him hooking up with Joey or considered her off limits since his best friend might like her too. It just seems as if that rule only applies to Pacey 2) This seems to imply that the only feelings that matter in this equation are Dawson's. Joey also had feelings for Pacey too. So what that seems to imply is they should have denied how they felt about each other because Dawson was in love with her and went out with her first even though the fact is that is what they tried to do at first and didn't work. 3) How come it was ok for Dawson to hook up with Jen in s5 even though it hurt Joey and she presumably also considered him her soulmate. It just seems to me that all these rules about who is and isn't off limits apply to everyone except when it comes to Dawson and his feelings.

As for how Dawson behaved at the end of s3 I see it as more than just childish. I think he was being deliberately selfish and I just don't think he cared about anyones feelings except his own and that's why he felt entitled to behave the way he did. I agree the way Pacey behaved when he broke up with Joey was horrible and there was no excuse for it. The fact that he felt horrible about the way things were going didn't give him the right to take it out on someone else. And that's how I feel about Dawson's behaviour.I don't think a person has the right to behave how ever they like just because things aren't going the way they want them to. The only real diffrence I see is that atleast Pacey recognised that he had crossed the line. I don't think the same can be said for Dawson. And yes he was young, but that argument only carries so much weight with me because if you can excuse his behaviour because of his age then none of them should be held accountable for their bad behaviour because they were all teenagers.

Pace & Jo

I don't think Pacey "went after" Joey. Pacey was doing Dawson a favor by keeping an eye on her bc Dawson was too busy with Eve. They hung out, became friends, and ulitimately fell for her. I don't think he set out to get Joey, he just happened to realize what a great person she was. Once he realized his feelings for her, he struggled with it. He knew it would hurt Dawson but was he suppose to just deny his feelings for her? You can't deny someone that gives you butterflies.

Pace & Jo

I have noticed that a lot with Dawson fans.

*Sooz*

In Season 3, Dawson was, what, 16? Season 3, IMHO was the only low point of his character. But you know what, he learnt from his mistakes. He got better season by season and grew up to be a guy, who didn't continue to yank people about but concentrated more on his carees which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Joey, on the other hand, is 18/19 and still is playing with the hearts of both guys. She's sleeping with Dawson one minute, dumping him the next, flirting with Pacey again, dumping him for another guy. She's an adult and what I can't forgive her for is that she didn't learn from her mistakes - she continued making the same mistake, hurting the same guys. If she doesn't mean to keep hurting both guys, why does she date both of them again.

I still think that it was bang out of order for Pacey to pursue Joey, I would never pursue a guy my best friend was/is in love with. It's disrespectful BUT can we not make this thread into another D/J vs P/J argument.

Jerry D

Great post Rachel. I think that Dawson’s actions in the boat race were very wrong, and I’ve said that many times, but I don’t think he was trying to “kill” Pacey, and I really don’t blame him for feeling betrayed and hurt when he found out, through Jen, about Pacey and Joey. So many people always condemned him for his ultimatum to Joey, but I don’t blame him for saying what he said, and in the end, all his harsh words were negated anyway, because Dawson was there to pick up the pieces when her relationship with Pacey fell apart.

I also wish that people would remember that Dawson was intending to tell Joey that he loved her and wanted to get back together with her before he found out that Joey and Pacey had become an “item,” so the argument that Dawson was only motivated to win Joey back because he had “lost” her to Pacey is a spurious one.

I also find it incredible that some people interpret the fact that he rejected her sexual advances at the beginning of Season Three as some kind of cruel rejection of Joey that “drove her to Pacey,” because nothing could be further from the truth. Dawson knew that the time and circumstances weren’t right for them to have sex and he had enough love and respect for Joey not to “use” her in such a way. Another point many people seem to miss is that he had never stopped loving Joey, but he just needed time to allow his wounded heart to heal after she had so cruelly broken up with him at the end of Season Two, telling him that she “didn’t want to know him,” so I don’t think he was arrogantly expecting Joey to wait in the wings for him.

Dawson then embarked on a long journey where he began to question everything about his life, and at the end of his journey, he discovered that Joey Potter was his love, his inspiration, and his conscience, for right or wrong. Then, just at the very moment he intended to tell Joey how he felt, he found out that the two people he cared about the most in the entire world were romantically involved with one another. I think that any one of us would have been just as shocked, angry, and hurt as Dawson was if that had happened to one of us.

COOLCAT200

My take on Dawson at the end of season 3 is this, The way he found out blind sided like that did make the situation worse. I think Dawson was in pain but what happened was he let his pain turn into bad anger and once the anger took over it completely clouded his judgment and he became so consumed about what he wanted. I think also deep down he knew P/J were not just some fling and that scared him. I was very pleased since he is my favorite character with his Growth and understanding in season 4. I am really glad he did not continue down that end season 3 road in season 4 or I would have been very upset.

coldwater1010

Well that's the thing. He had every right to do that and I don't have a problem with that. But I also think Joey had a right to move on with her life if that's what she wanted to do. He wasn't obligated to take her back at the beginning of s3, but she also wasn't obligated to wait around indefinately for him to decide after all that she was the one. It was unfortunate that she fell in love with Pacey, but she didn't do it to spite Dawson. It was just what happened.

I don't have a problem with him not sleeping with Joey at the beginning of s3. I think he did the right thing. She clearly wasn't ready to have sex.
I also don't think she was right to blame Dawson for her father going to prison, but she had just had to betray her father and send him back to prison so she was obviously in a heightened emotional state at the time and over reacted. I think if Dawson is allowed to overreact when he's upset or angry then I'm not sure why she isn't allowed to. She did warn him if he interfered it would mean the end of them and he said it was a risk he was willing to take. If that was really true maybe he should have taken he statement for what it was -her anger at the situation causing her to lash out at the person who was nearest to her - and given her time to cool down.

How exactly did Joey yank Dawson around at that point? She wanted to get back together with him and he decided that it wasn't what he wanted after his father died and hooked up with Jen. Then in s6 she slept with him and then later found out he had a girlfriend that he only ended things with after they slept together. I don't necessarily think she shouldn't have forgiven him for that, but he was in the wrong in that situation and if she decided that she didn't want to be with him after that I'm not sure how that makes her a bitch and she never tried to get back together with him after that. He moved on to Natasha and she moved on to Eddie.

COOLCAT200

I just have to applaud this post Jerry . I also feel Dawson did the right thing and I knew he still loved her.

Jerry D

Thanks Eric!

notsomuch

I agree that having sex at that time, was not a good idea. But what if Eve wasn't waiting in the wings, do you think Dawson still would not have gone through with it? I haven't seen this episode in years, so maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I thought Eve was really the reason for him turning Joey down.

Jerry D

No, it really wasn't Eve at all, I don't think that made him turn Joey down. He just knew that it wouldn't be right for him to have sex with Joey at that particular time.

Here's part of that scene from Like A Virgin:

Dawson: No.

Joey: What is it? What's wrong?

Dawson: Everything. This is not you.

Joey: I can be sexual, Dawson.

Dawson: I know you can, Joey. But we can't do this. Not now. Not like this. Put your shirt back on.

Dawson: I'm sorry if you're hurt.

Joey: Hurt? Why would I be hurt, Dawson? I hope you're not delusional enough to think it was some embarrassing attempt at getting you back. Besides, if sex is all you're about these days--

Dawson: Sex is not all I'm about, Joey. And you, more than anyone, should know that.

P.S. Many thanks to Mandy for having transcripts of all the Dawson's Creek episodes at her website, Devoted 2 Dawson's Creek Archives.