I only want to say this on yesterdays post of mine:
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Emma, the sometimes caps lock is just how Fay often brings her thoughts across, it`s not personal. And of course we all analyze each others comments. We have to scrutenize to discuss. In fact it`s often the not analyzing deeply enough that then leads to misunderstandings. I often read the comments a few times before a reply. And sometimes, if I read them again the next day, I find a different meaning.
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Kathryn thank you,
This is exactly how I use caps, with no personal note to anyone.Also, of course I think very thoroughly other people comments, as I wish you all do with my comments..
Bec that would meant that you find them interesting at the least..
If we don’t do that..then what’s the purpose of expressing our thoughts, wanting to discuss them?
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We're all count on that, Alex.  Too bad you're having bad reception there. Also, I'll be around the whole day today, guys. So if there's something, pls PM me any time and I'll try to answer asap. |
Thank you dear
Alex and Arinna.
I just want to say I am happy that this matter solved, and we are all here. 
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That's what I asked earlier. Can you define what ambition exactly drives him to go along with the consummation scene? Because I don't see it as an ambition driven act and maybe your opinion will let me see it as one, who knwos
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Natalie, I answer your question in the same post, but you probably didn’t saw it, so I’ll re post here to read if you want:
His ambition was this Ces, back then is still under Rod influense, power, and shadow. He has nothing on his own yet. No papal army, not his own army. He still PLANS to find a way to get an army, and have his own way.
That is whay he goes to France. But he didn't go there yet. He doesn't know if he will succeed in France. So, at this point, Naples is not the enemy for Ces, not untill some time later. Naples is still an ally, an ally, Rome and Pope, NEEDS, that IS WHY THEY MARRIED Lu.Naples, at this point is a crucial ally, with more power thatn Rome, in some point. That is why the Pope, NEEDS Naples.
They NEED Naples and France at this point. When, some time after, Ces will GET FRANCE, AND AN ARMY, HE HAS NO USE FOR Naples. Then and only then.
But as I saw in the post, you said it yourself dear, so…
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Rodrigo asks and Cesare is very tempted to do just that. He did it once when he killed Sforza and nearly started a war - BECAUSE of LUCREZIA, so he did put his love before his ambitions and he was capable of doing that again but it would imperil them all, including LUcrezia, as their power at that moment was very fragile and they (all three of them R,C,L) needed this alliance. Otherwise why did Lucrezia agree to marry Alfonso in the first place if not for a political reason? Their actions are motivated by political reasons and again, the instinct of survival in order to stay on top of the game but their LOVE is the only thing that is intact and unquestionable. They can question the right and wrong of their decisions, alliances, certain political moves but never their love. Their priorities always change but never their love for each other...
Cesare does care about politics otherwise he would not be the Borgia prince )) but his politics and ambitions are no longer a number 1 priority when Lu's fate is at stake, hence the comment - I don't want Naples yet, I want my sister! Which is perfectly in accord with what I have been trying to point out all along. In other words - France, Spain, Naples can go to hell, he wants his sister first!
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Political reason, exactly! Yes, as I said,
If he had to CHOOSE between his ambition and Lu, he will choose Lu. 
What he will not do, is to just give up his ambitions, without any reason.
Thus he will MAKE SURE that HIS ENEMIES CANNOT REACH, TOUCH, AND HARM HIS ONLY WEAKNESS.. ("My one weakness…the one chink in my armor - is you.") NEVER AGAIN (3X09).
He will take caution, and messures, to pretect his Lu from any harm…and thus, making his plans, without worrying about her..
too much!! Bec he always will worry, we know that!
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it worth mentioning that when Ces and Lu have the "it overwhelms" conversation, she still seems to be aware that Cesare has other priorities besides her when he says that he must go. She then gets a little petulant when she talks about him now having his army. She knows that this army and beating Caterina are a priority. I think it's an interesting balance between her being irritated at his other priorities and being even more attracted to him for his thirst for power. As much as it annoys, she wouldn't wish him to be different as she wouldn't long for him in the same way. Kind of a catch 22, I think.
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She is not irritated about his other priorities, she always knew he had other priorities all his life, she is irritated and becomes petulant because he does not give in and she is tired of his pulling away. His army and beating Caterina is on his agenda at that moment, just as Naples and married to Alfonso was Lucrezia's priority that irritated the hell our of Cesare, but that does not mean their love for each other is a lesser priority than their other priorities...if that's your point...
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Kim and Natalie I believe IS BOTH! She is petulan bec he was pulling away, and also bec, while she was making his a love declair..he said he must go! She is a woman in love. She was ungry bec Ces has his mind in his war. But Yes
Kim, that ‘unger” last very short…Bec she is a Borgia, and understands the importance of the family to PREVAIL if they want to be safe,
as Kathryn , spotted very well
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But a political animal herself, Lu knows that he has to go. Remember her conversation with Alf, it was in either E6 or E7, that starts with Lu cozying up to Alf saying "can we be happy now...?' She always knows that they will never be safe unless they prevail.
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Also, Kim, I totally agree on the fact that he wants him even more for this power thrist of him..As I said in my previous post, Alf is WEAK in character, Lu is Ces 'counterpart' she wants POWER. ("If you don't do it, then i must' regarding the choosing between the two brothers, who is to be King) That is why she cannot LOVE Alf as a man, but as a "child". (Remeber her words in 2x10 "is good , i could love him".)
She didn't succeed. Bec, She maybe
NEEDED a husband weak, that she could control him, after Sforza,
BUT that's NOT THE kind of man She WANTED. The kind of man who COULD APPEAL TO HER HEART, HER LOVE. She wants someone who lusts for power, and ruling.
She wants a man powerfull, WHO AT THE SAME TIME, IS WEAK IN HER LOVING HANDS, BUT POWERFULL NEVERTHELESS.SHE WANTS CESARE.
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and Fay , I rather thought that Ces went to witness the consummation, because Lu basically made him.
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Kathryn,I probably didn’t express my thoughts well…
this wasn’t what I meant dear, when I said that he did that for her sake also: He was the responsible for their marriage not to consummated, so he desided to be the responsible for their consummation also..Although this hurt him very bad, it was, I think, a way to tell her, “find happiness with him, consummate the marriage, i meant that he wanted Lu and Alf to AT LEAST TRY to have a happy marriage, to give them a chance, so he wanted the marriage to consummate..(3x04 go love your husband) even this, WAS KILLING HIM INSIDE.
So, I don’t think either that he thought the possibility to witness it, not in a million! He is a man in love, he has limits!
Is another thing to say to Lu “go love your husband” and a completely different thing to WITNESS IT! Thus, the wonderful scene, where his WEEPING when he realizes that his “punishment’ for not stoping it, was to be there, with them..
(LOVE THIS SCENE..)
But in the end,
HE didn’t bear it. In the end, on that dark room, seeing the woman he loves making love to another, his love came on the surface once more, and he take the matter into his hands.
HE made love with Lu, he made her orgasm, HE MARKED HER. He made her his, only with his eyes. He wasn’t able to “give her to another man”.
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Fay, I love your analyze of C/L and ambition. They are both ambitious and occasionally disregard the others feelings to further their own agendas while other times, like the per-consummation scene, they must go forward with things to great pain to them both. I also agree with Alfonso being weak and Lu being incapable of loving him.
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Trina Thank you so much!
Yes, They are a true couple.
That love utterly one another, that could DIE for each other, but
SIMULTANEOUSLY CAN HURT EACH OTHER. Yes, hurt each other. Intentionally, OR unintentionally. Bec they dodn’t have other choice, bec they think is for the best, or bec they are mad to each other.
The true love, is no peace …
At least, for me!
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Love the "I don't want Naples yet, I want my sister" line so indicative of Cesare's putting Lu's safety above his ambitions. He might not always put her feelings, own ambitions, above his but her safety he does.
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He might not always put her feelings, own ambitions, above his but her safety he does
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this!!!
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Cesare isn't the only one putting his ambitions first either. Lucrezia's S2 line "Will you marry me to Alfonso" is putting her ambitions (gaining the Duchess title, a weak willed husband she can control) above his personal happiness. Does anyone else think that scene indicative of Lu's ambitious taking priority too?
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i think the same Trina.
This is one of the cases that Hurt eachother, even if they love each other!!
As Ces hurt Lu in 3x04, when didn’t stop the consummation. As he did when in the same ep, she begged him to came back, and he said to her to find happiness, and pul his hand of hers, and went to France. As he continue to do (bec he thought this was the best for her!) when he keep dismissing her love, up until 3x10.
As Lu hurt Ces, when he talk to him about Paolo. As Ces DESPITE the fact that was suffering, from loving her, ARRANGED her to meet him.
She Did the same when he told him in 2x10 that she wants to marry Al, and to love him..
(with such despair in his voice..They both know..It is impossible..”Do you love him sis?”)
as
Kim also said
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Their relationship is now more grounded in the "real world" that includes politics, intrigues and power.
I even thought that Cesare's last line is very telling. He's defeated Caterina and has become the warrior and power player that he has always wanted to be. Even his claiming Lucrezia when he says mine is symbolic of both claiming her in a romantic way, but also as he would a conquest or possession.
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So, yes they have hurt each other. This doesn’t mean they do not love each other, on the contrary, this hurt IS
VITAL part of their love. They suffer, fight, love..
In one word, they maturate.
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She definitely wields her power as best she can under the circumstances. I thought the comment that Alfonso makes at the investiture of the new King of Naples is very telling. Cesare wants to know if Alfonso trusts the new king and he basically says that it doesn't matter since it is Lucrezia who is the author of the current situation. She is clearly the power in the relationship and to me she looks quite pleased that he and Cesare now know it.
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They are the NOTORIOUS Borgias...Ces and Lu, are Soul mates, eternal lovers, YES. BUT they also are 2
different persons. They have different wishes, ambitions, different way of thinking.Those differences,
may be opposite, as in the case of Naples. as I said
They are each other “Counterpart” in every aspect: In love, in cleverness, in wits, in diplomacy, in ambitions. (Remember Lu’s words in her mother in wedding board, she has her own ambitions alright, and that is completely RATIONAL. She is a Borgia, to all aspects, good and bad!)
Perfect soul mates..Lu is Ces 'counterpart' she wants POWER also
Magnanimous in love…in ambition…in wits. ONLY A BORGIA CAN LOVE A BORGIA afterall...
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I`m not sure that was so much about ambition as to get her father, and his never-ending parade of suitors, off her back. Alf was as good as any, and she knew she could do so much worse. She would have preferred not to marry at all, and she knew that Ces knew that. I don`t think that she saw Alf as weak then, she thought he was 'good'.
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Kathryn Lu after her trauma with Sforza, she decided two things, i believe: One never to allow to a husband to hurt her again, physically and emotionally, and to gain power, for not ever again be α "stooge" for anyone, nor her husband. She decided to have her OWN plans, and ambitions, not to be a "pawn" in her father's and Ces ambition, as she said to her mothers also. So, Alf, was perfect. Being his wife, gain power, previleges, became a Duchess. She had control of her fate. On the other hand, Alf was innocent, sweet.. a "clay", for her to concoct him into a man of her Liking. So, she get's everything. A husband that she can control totally, and power as Duchess.
SO..BINGO!! THE PERFECT MATE!
Finally...the most
AMBIGUOYS part for me in all series...
DOES Rod REALIZES what happens between siblings?? Please, tell me your opinion...I think that 'subconciously" have suspicions, but, he cannot except that in concious...Bec, although Rod has TERRIBLE FLAWS...I think he is a true believer in some point, believes in God, and that he is his "messenger" in earth...so, for him, the siblings relationship, is unthinkable, and chooses to "turn a blind eye"to the truth...
JUST LIKE HE DID WITH THE RIVAL AND HATE BETWEEN JUAN AND CESARE....