wilywiccan

I may puke in my mouth a little if Harmony was his first outside of Drusilla.

We know he probably lost his virginity to Drusilla. I think he realized post catching her mid coital with Angelus and post The Immortal having a threesome with Dru & Darla that he could be in a relationship with her and still bang other women.

The question is whether or not he would go through with it. Even if he was attracted to other women he was so in love with Drusilla since she was his first love, first lover, sire, the person that rescued him from mediocrity, the only one that saw him from lowly human to powerful vampire.

I think Buffy being a Slayer definitely contributed (flexibility, penchant for BDSM, stamina, durability) and of course it would be so much better since he waited so long and loves her so much.

But I think part of it was that they fit so well together. They have similar spirits. And Buffy, trying to completely lose herself and hide her depression in physical sensual pleasure, was up for EVERYTHING. She would keep pushing the limits of her sexuality to escape the loss of Heaven.

Jaime Bee

Well since we know he and Angel raped then actually could easily be times a girl was willing.

Do you think Liam raped?

wilywiccan

We don't know for certain that Spike raped when he was soulless. He trailed off. The language was vague. The implication wasn't 100%.

I don't know about Liam. Maybe. He frequented whore houses so he had plenty of willing lasses. But didn't always have money (at one point he stole from his dad to pay for prostitutes). He strikes me as the kind of guy that flirted with everyone and could get almost any girl (married, saving herself, etc.) to give it up. But he may have taken advantage of drunk village girls. Gotten drunk himself and committed date rape. He probably pressured girls not realizing the shame they would feel the next day when the mood wore off. And he could definitely be considered a statutory rapist (though they didn't call it that back then). He was already 26 when he was sired and I bet some of those girls were in their teens.

Jaime Bee

I really think it's naive to think Spike never raped anyone.

The orig. BY ending he mentions he raped but since Joss changed it doesn't count as Canon.

Well it was made clear Angel did.

I could see him even making Spike do it.

There is a reason Spike was the second most evil vamp in history.

We know that Angelus turned him into a monster.

He would do anything evil of course.

wilywiccan

Not everyone chooses rape as a form of violence. Mass murderers aren't always rapists too.

Like you said, we know that Angelus raped. It is fact. Canon. We just don't know for certain with Spike. We know he killed.

I never bought into Spike being the "2nd worse vampire in history". I think most of that was just him being loud. He sought fame. He was sloppy. He wanted to make a name for himself. To get people talking about him.

With Angelus it was different. He earned that title of worse vamp in history. He was a sadist. He was akin to the kinds of serial killers profilers study and true crime authors write extensive books on. He was twisted and emotionless and used torture as an art.

Spike was just a look-at-me let's-have-some-fun bloodthirsty vamp. The Master was worse than Spike. That vamp from In The Dark (AtS 1x3) was worse than Spike.

Do you remember what the original Beneath You transcript said?

Jaime Bee

I just remembered Giles saying that I think.

It's not like the Council of Wankers knew anything true.

I just feel like a lot of shippers ignore that Spike was evil.

I guess I want it clear that I don't and don't think he can do no wrong.

Like the crazy Spike fans that sent hate mail to SMG.



I think all this.

wilywiccan

A lot of Supernatural fans can't accept that Dean & Sam were both raped in Hell. In their cases it didn't matter that it wasn't 100% explicitly said, only strongly implied. It is what made the most sense. In fact, it made zero sense if they weren't.

I mean, the demon Aleister tortured Dean every single day for 30 years in order to break him and we're supposed to think that in all that time he didn't sexual assault him? And Sam was trapped in a cage with Lucifer & Michael for over a century and he's the one that put them there. As if they wouldn't take it out on him every way imaginable. Even the language used. "for all the pokes and prods" "I made you my bitch in every sense of the word"

Jaime Bee

Orig. BY shooting script.

http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/scripts/124_scri.html


That's!

I would rather look at this and be in my Spuffy bubble.

wilywiccan

Oh, I know you're one of the good Spuffy shippers that doesn't worship at the Altar of Spike and think Buffy is a bitch for being her own person.

Looking at that kissing gif, it seems so second nature that they are doing that since we've known about them being together for so long and yet when you remember that the first few years she knew him they never had any contact like that. Imagine Lovers Walk Buffy kissing him like that! Or one of their s2 encounters!

Jaime Bee

Joss could have went there with Spuffy any time.

He could make those work.

wilywiccan

I checked out that transcript. I'm glad they cut out that.

SPIKE
Yeah. I've been ... well come on,Let's face it, been a one-man slaughterhouse, last hundred years. Raping. Murdering. And for what? (beat) Kicks.

He stands in the pew, bows his head in reverence.

SPIKE (cont'd)
William the Bloody awful poet, skipping down the lane ... good boy, bad boy, all the sodding same. You like it? Wrote that one myself.

He rolls his head around slowly, up to the ceiling, staring.

SPIKE (cont'd)
Is it hot enough in here to burn all your mortal sins away?

Sometimes I consider cut lines to still be canon if they were only cut because of lack of space or many other great reasons that the writers intended them to be canon but just couldn't put it in. I don't know how I feel about that. Not that it changes anything. He killed thousands. He was a soulless demon.

Jaime Bee

I can see why Joss rewrote it that entire scene.

It's obvious he must have wrote all the crazy Spike scenes.

I think they all have the same tone.

falling slowly

Are you guys talking about the comics?

Jaime Bee

No the show in Season 7 and we are gonna stop b/c it will spoil too much.

falling slowly

Aww I don't want to spoil your convo. I'll just stay in the OT thread for now