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Old 04-01-2017, 11:08 PM
  #31
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She over reacted IMO.
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Old 04-02-2017, 02:52 AM
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Extremely over-reacted
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Old 04-02-2017, 08:07 AM
  #33
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But on the other hand, I can't help thinking that Mary is being a little hypocritical in light of what happened with Conde... Francis forgave her, but she can't forgive Darnley?
I see it differently, her affair with Conde stemmed from the trauma of being raped. As awful as that whole story was, she was very open with Francis with him even sanctioning the affair.

In this case, Darnley lied to her, coherced her brother to lie to her, and in doing so broke the fragile trust they had started to built. I said this in the other thread, but I think the broken trust is the biggest issue for Mary rather than the actual affair. It's generally the hardest part to overcome for most cheated on partners.

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Old 04-02-2017, 03:55 PM
  #34
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I completely agree that the lying and violation of trust is the biggest issue. However, as much as I sympathize with the trauma Mary had endured, and despite the fact that Francis had "sanctioned" the affair, I still see her affair with Conde as a MUCH greater betrayal than what Darnley did to her. Mary KNEW that Francis knew about the affair and how much it was hurting him, yet she continued with it anyway. She lied to him and secretly tried to help Conde escape, which put them and all of France in grave danger. I understand that Francis, in a sense, broke their trust first by keeping the blackmail issue a secret, but what Mary did shattered everything they had built together to pieces. I'm not saying that Mary wasn't worthy of a second chance. Of course she was! And she was blessed that Francis was strong enough to give her one. Now, I think she should try to forgive as she was forgiven. I'm not sure if Darnley is worthy of a second chance, but he needs to be given one in order for us to find out. It was one indiscretion... and they're not even married yet. IMO she did overreact.

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Old 04-02-2017, 04:09 PM
  #35
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I understand your view of the whole Conde debacle, and it wasn't my intent to debate it since I know that it's something we see differently. And I do agree that the Conde situation is on a completely different level than what Darnley did for so many reasons.

I just think the broken trust is why Mary was so upset vs the actual affair. Here's a man that had finally broken down her walls, she talked to him about Francis, they slept together for the first time, she dreamed that she could find love again and then the next day he sleeps with his ex and lies to her and instantly it's all gone. I don't think she overreacted at all. The loss of that sense of closeness and the hope of future happiness is heartbreaking especially for someone like Mary who had a great love through a political marriage. And they are engaged...I mean would you be ok with your fiancee sleeping with is ex? I wouldn't but maybe that's just me

He'll definitely be given a second chance...we know they have to concieve a child so I'm assuming something will have to give there lol.
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Old 04-02-2017, 06:54 PM
  #36
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I don't think we see it that differently. I was just pointing out that Mary, in the midst of having an ongoing affair, ALSO lied and violated Francis' trust in a pretty horrific way. There's just a certain amount of hypocrisy in her judging Darnley for doing the same thing.

I said this in another thread, but I do completely understand Mary's initial reaction. She had just discovered the betrayal. I know how hurt and disappointed she is, for all the reasons you just stated. My heart breaks for her. I just think she was a little rash to declare that she will never forgive him and they will never be happy. Then again...that was after he had declared that she will never love him. Ugh, what a mess.

Obviously I wouldn't be ok with my fiance sleeping with his ex, and I don't expect Mary to be. But there is a distinction between being engaged and being married. Breaking marriage vows and their promise of faithfulness before God is simply a whole other level of betrayal.

You're right, Darnley will be given a second chance, one way or another - "for the good of Scotland and the promise of England." One or both of them is going to have give in - even if they don't forgive.
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Old 04-02-2017, 09:03 PM
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Mary actually betrayed Francis by attempting to leave France with Conde. That is on whole different level of betrayl. But that is neither here nor there. She by no means should be okay with what he did, but she should have at least had enough compassion given the painful situation, to give him another chance. Tentatively of course.
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Old 04-03-2017, 06:30 AM
  #38
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She'll definitely give him another chance as we know. It's going to be a heck of a crazy ride with those two. I would be scared if I were her though because even though she's a Queen...he's still man...he will be the King and her husband which means power over her. I have a feeling he's going to use that big time.

One of the actors said it best..'hold onto your butts'
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Old 04-05-2017, 09:11 PM
  #39
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I don't remember seeing that.
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Old 04-05-2017, 09:26 PM
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I would not give a fiancé or a boyfriend another chance for outright cheating. I would give a spouse another shot.

The way I see it is if you cannot be faithful before the marriage you won't be faithful during.

I would give a spouse another shot. Because we took vows.

Of course cheating on a spouse is worse. But I only plan on my marriage to be to death due you part. I would not want to take vows with a cheater.

Mary should not marry him she is being foolish. She has first hand knowledge of his bad character and is doing I think for power.

If she does marry him she should forgive and give him a shot.

Of course it depends on what you constitute cheating if all he had done was kiss her I would forgive that.

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Old 04-06-2017, 09:55 AM
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^ Those are great points. Cheating with fiances and spouses is different. I agree with you - especially about marriage being until death do you part. It's sacred, and you have to fight to make it work. Unfortunately for Mary, she doesn't have the luxury of choosing her marriage partner based on love and trust. That's why I'm so worried for her right now.

'hold onto your butts' Who said that? I don't remember seeing that, either.

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Old 04-06-2017, 12:08 PM
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Mary does not have luxury of picking but he is not her only option. She could go for someone with better character like the guy Claude married.
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Old 04-06-2017, 01:54 PM
  #43
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Not if she wants England. They have explained this. Actually she says it like 10 times in every episode. She can't stand against Elizabeth without Darnley.
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Old 04-06-2017, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by NotDoneAbusingYou (View Post)
Not if she wants England. They have explained this. Actually she says it like 10 times in every episode. She can't stand against Elizabeth without Darnley.
And why does her people benefit from her getting England?? She is only leading to a potential war and she's antognizing her cousin. Her obsession with England her cousins throne leads to her downfall. Her people would have benefited much more for warmer relations. Her son gained the throne of England partially because he did not antogonize Elizabeth.

My understanding is in real life Elizabeth looked at Mary's choices and wondered even if she would be a good queen. She wrote letters begging her not to marry the third guy.
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Old 04-06-2017, 03:10 PM
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She needs England, because as Elizabeth pointed out, nether one of them will ever be safe as long as the other is still a competitor. Even if rhey don't fight each other, their supporters will. People will continue to come for them both. England means safety for them. Whichever queen has the throne has more power whuch means more saftey from anyone who should come for them. Also, should Mary get England she could unite the two countries under her rule and end centuries worth of fighting.
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