T'Lynn

fox24

Thanks hope the next thread won't take 2 years

T'Lynn

Haha! Thanks for helping close out the last one!

fox24

Your welcome

CityGal

TFTNT!

Continuing the discussion:



Agree so much. These characters are rich and complex and should appreciated in the context of their own story. It's not a competition of who is the least villainous to whom or one can't be redeemed without the other. The frustration to A&E's storytelling method is the action happens before the explanation. Hence the current frustration within the fandom. Supporters insist there is an explanation to Gold's behavior which hasn't been shown, and Hook supporters are dismayed that some are not outraged or excusing the current behavior.

Ultimately both stories will be told be season's end and should appreciate the men who portray their respective roles so well ,and attempt to discuss them in the present with the knowledge that the story and characters' will evolve. It only requires patience from the viewer.

T'Lynn

Well said both of you!

The fandom tends to pit one character against the other more than is intended. Both of these characters are fascinating to watch and they have such intricate journeys. They may intertwine but they are separate journeys. I'm always eager to see their interaction though!

Jinzle

Well said!

scififan2009

He's not gonna kill him. Rumple never gets away with doing things that easy.

Miss Cam

Thanks for the new thread

Rhonwen

BUt see that's where many Hook fans are wrong. WE are outraged. I am so frustrated and upset with this storyline because of how Rumple is looking and it's a complete turn around from season 3

But being outraged doesn't mean I'm going to abandon my fav character, (i'd stop watching if they never put him back on track), I'm going to wait and see how they implement all his reasoning and everything Kalinda, and A/E said he's going through before I pass judgement.
It doesn't mean I'm not upset or outraged though. I'm hating this. Just as if I were a Hook fan and I was outraged over things he has done I'd still stick by him.

Glader|4|Life, I never responded to your response back to me. My nerves are all over the place too. I know it makes for good drama but this is not what I'd want for Rumple/Hook. I know the leather shop will never happen, but there has to be a better in between. And I don't like the fandom being so hard on each other about things. I know as a Rumple fan I was upset because as much as I understand the Rumple hate at the moment. It's hard to read, because I had promised myself that I wasn't going to do that because I had people I liked and I didn't want to upset them. But as soon as I read vile, and so many hurtful comments I was angry. and not because I felt it wasn't justified to be angry at Rumple but because I thought that the people would be sensitive to me feelings. But that was selfish of me. SO I am trying to not take things said to heart. Its' hard for fans to see a character they don't like as more than just the surface of what they are doing, they dont care about the depth or to know what the inner struggles are. They see the surface and parallel that they want and are fine to see the story only one way. This happens a lot where fans of one fav will only see the story through the eyes of their fav and not look with any depth of the other character.

I just want this story line over and Rumple to be back on the road to redemption, maybe if TPTB somehow have Hook and Rumple see each other as more than villains it would be good. I mean things that burn me this season as far as their relationship, was first ~ Hook saw Rumple sacrifice himself, knows that he was controlled by Zelena. Rumple trusted him and Emma both enough to want them to get the dagger showing he's trust them to control him far more than Zelena. Hook knows that Bae died just recently and the Rumple who spent centuries looking for him is probably grieving still. SO why this sudden change by the writers of having them, Hook with his instant not trusting of Rumple,with his thinking Rumple is just evil after he's seen the contrary. and Rumple with his sudden turn to evil and all his moves. I thought that the above was significant that Rumple trusted them to take the dagger, and Hook's face when Rumple sacrificed himself but now we get this lopsided story on both. How did both get to this point after s3? It's painful and feels the writers dropped development to make more angst.



Thanks for the new thread too

T'Lynn

I understand the frustration. I know you are frustrated by the story because it looks like they are using Rumple to make Hook look like a hero but ... they do kind of have to.

Let me explain my thought here.

The earliest Hook timeline is him losing his brother and turning to piracy so he loses that moral code that he had. The next time we see him is years later when he is an established pirate and he effectively runs away with everything Rumple had wanted - which is his son to be raised and loved by BOTH parents. Hook is no stand up guy in these scenes but he is not evil. It was after Milah was killed that he became the villain that was singularly focused on killing the Dark One and didn't care about collateral damage.

Hook's villainy is almost 100% tied in to Rumple. He can't be redeemed without facing off with Rumple again. The thing about Rumple is that he can never be irredeemable in my eyes because he has this curse. Obviously he has some free will against the curse (and he could choose to lose it all together) but as long as he is cursed he is going to have this pull to make the villainous decision.

I think A&E had a very clear plan when it came to Hook and Rumple. I think they want to save redeeming Rumple completely until the very end. I thought they might do it sooner but now ... not so much.

scififan2009

Hook just has good instincts. He knew Rumple used Belle and the dagger to cover up the truth, which is that he knows more about Anna and how the urn came into his possession.

Maybe if he'd have been honest with them from the start instead of using his own wife, Hook never would have needed to force him to help. And honestly the first time he did it it was to help Emma find out who cursed Marian.

The writers have made it pretty easy for me when deciding who to root for. We have one guy committed to helping Emma and Elsa in their fight against the Snow Queen. And then we have another guy who seems completely apathetic to the town's plight, and only cares about fulfilling his own selfish goals, no matter who he has to hurt.

Between the two of them, I know who I'd put my money on to get a happy ending at the conclusion of this arc.

Rhonwen

wait a minute?? You read my whole post?? I admire your stamina..


I get what you're saying. and I agree. But I also see Rumple's turn to darkness 100% tied to the damage done to him by others and the curse.

We see before he was cursed that he was a good man. He may have panicked at the front lines listening to the seer, but his intent was to not have his son grow up wthout the love of a father. Something that is admirable. His love fo family and esp his son wasn't evil or wrong. Rumple didn';t have the love of a father, he was more than abandoned but taunted and abused by Malcolm.
So it's equally frustrating to see Rumple's villiany ties as 100% him when his backstory tells a completely different story.
A man that cared, and loved deeply but was destroyed by a curse and others. And even his turn to get the dagger wasn't for selfish reasons or power. His intent was to save his son and all the children at the front lines and use the magic for good. SO the curse changed him since the latter he cant seem to do.

the writers are very close to destroying Rumple imo. We are not seeing what his arc is all about esp after the strides of season 3. We are only seeing his cruelty and it's not makign sense. And if the writers intend to keep him irredeemable and a villian until the end of the show then I dont even see how they can keep his marriage alive. If belel leaves him then his walls go back up and his belief that he's unlovable and unworthy of of anything .No one hates Rumpelstiltskin more than Rumplestiltskin does. The show is over since B&tB won't get a happy ending because they wont be able to bring him back from the brink if they wait.

AS for Hook and him it still doesn't amke sense that tey have a plan when last season Hook saw Rumple do an amazing thing and selflessly sacrifice himself for his loved ones and save the town as a result. And how Rumple could suggest to his foe that he take the dagger if possible from Zelena and control him to stop this madness that she created. But yet this season they still see each other as selfish villians that only hate



scififan2009, we know how you feel. But really Hook and Rumpel aren't that much differnt. Hook only is helping becuae of Emma. He's never helped anyone unless Emma wanted it. He's as selfish as Rumple in that regards. If Emma wasn'tt involved in the Snow Queen plan he woudln't be either.

that can be applied to Hook as well. Maybe not to the extreme of RUmple is at them moment. But his blackmail, his reblackmailing, was all for selfish reasons and he didn't care who he hurt.

And honestly you know the writers aren't giving us the full story on Rumple. So I doubt he'll be evil forever, and that we'll see somethign to udnerstand and forgive him. He may have fallen fast into darkenss but no one on this show is "holier than thou"

T'Lynn

I just can't agree that the writers are destroying Rumple, they are just showing what a conflicted character he is. But I get it ... I read all the True Blood books and I was so appalled by what the TV show did to the Sookie and Eric characters that I couldn't watch it anymore.

Hook & Rumple had a temporary truce but it fell apart pretty easily because Rumple refused to help when Emma was trapped and freezing to death and then Hook thought it was okay to blackmail him.

They do both act for selfish reasons but they do both acknowledge that. And neither one believes they could ever be a hero so they have more in common than they would ever want to admit.

scififan2009

Maybe after Hook gets his heart back he can have first go at controlling Rumple with the dagger.

At least then they'd be even.