BL.Arinna_1982

PhoenixRising

Thanks for that pic, Arinna. I see you have another ship.

Rose/Martha, Nina? That's one I haven't heard of.

Yeah, OUAT was really all over the place with their storylines. There was hardly any consistency after a while. But I really resented them taking other characters' storylines and giving them to David, Mary, and Emma all the time. And I had been waiting for Philip and Aurora to show up on OUAT and when they finally got there I was disappointed by how little screen time they got.

Nikki K

Oh yeah but not just David, Snow and Emma, Gold and Regina as well. Though in all fairness I felt at least while I was still watching at least Regina's storylines still made sense and weren't overly confusing but that might have changed. All in all it's a shame, the cast was lovely (okay, the actor who played David has one facial expression.. maybe two but the rest were great)... it's just that the writers went for a lot of nonsensical effects.

Again, I don't know what's there to laugh about. I shipped Rose/Martha since Martha's first appearance on the show, even made a fanmix back then. There's lots of lovely fanfic around!

Henry and Elizabeth were really cute on the show, I was very relieved that the show followed history actually rather in that respect than Gregory's novel which it was sort of based on.

BL.Arinna_1982

I love Henry and Elizabeth on the show.

Nikki K

You wouldn't like the book then. I agree that I much preferred the show.

PhoenixRising

See, Regina is actually my favorite character from OUAT, along with Emma. The storylines they gave Regina actually felt earned, like they were really thinking about her development as a character and giving her a story arc all her own, as opposed to Charming and Snow, who were basically guilty of identity theft. The stole storylines from over a half dozen other characters and gave them to David and Mary, which really pissed me off. But giving them Philip and Aurora's was the last straw.

Did Martha and Rose ever have any scenes together? I wasn't watching much during the Martha era.

So how different are Henry and Elizabeth in the novel? It certainly seems like Phillippa Gregory is solidly on Team York and never misses an opportunity to put down the Tudors or the Lancasters.

Nikki K

Yeah, I liked Regina... I suppose at some point it just became painful for me because they seemed to throw her for the same loop repeatedly though she definitely seemed more capable and willing of learning and reforming than Gold. Be that because Henry was in her life as opposed to Gold who had lost Bae/Neil and therefore a good deal of his incentive. Idek. Ultimately I just wanted Regina to not have to fight so bloody hard all the time but get some happiness. Not sure if that ever transpired though because as I said I checked out mid season 3. I think I liked Snow the best in season 1 when she didn't know who she was in Storybrooke and also her Fairytale Land version in the flashbacks. Didn't mind her in season 2A because that had some nice Emma and Snow mother/daughter bonding moments but afterwards I wasn't terribly interested.

In Gregory's novel Henry actually cheats on Elizabeth with Lady Katherine Huntly. That really annoyed me because there is no reason to believe that is what happened historically, all sources (and I think a few surviving letters) talk about that Henry and Elizabeth actually got along really well and loved each other. So I was really fine that on TWP, the mini series, they basically played it reminiscent to Richard III's behaviour in TWQ that Henry only pretended to flirt with Kathy to rile up Richard. (Remember where Richard III told Anne he only pretended to flirt with Lizzie to rile up Henry? Well, you could view it that way if you prefer to watch the cut version like I do but if you watch the uncut version then he obviously lied to Anne whereas on TWP Henry seems honest with Lizzie...)

And yes, I think that was the episode with all the companions or something... perhaps even Ten's last one? I don't quite remember because I try to forget the Donna era but there's an episode where both Rose AND Martha are back and Rose tells the Doctor that she rather likes Martha.

Ohhh... look what I found... hmm... I wish there was a fanfic for this...

BL.Arinna_1982

Thanks for the vid.

PhoenixRising

Thanks for the vid, Nina. Another Clara/Twelve vid, huh?


Yeah, I agree. Snow White's storyline interested me for the first two seasons when she was Mary Margaret, and then dealing with reuniting with her daughter, Emma. But after what happened with Regina's mother I lost interest in Snow White's whole angst. I really wanted to see Regina get a better storyline, and I didn't think the whole Robin Hood thing did it, to be honest. No more than the Emma/Hook thing. That show really doesn't do ships well.

Oh, so Henry did sleep with Lady Catherine in order to humiliate Prince Richard? I take it Catherine didn't go along with it willingly, but was forced? And yeah, it does parallel the whole Richard III/Lizzie thing where Richard did the same thing to humiliate Henry Tudor. It was left a bit ambiguous as to what Richard's motives were at first, although it later became obvious as Queen Anne Neville's health declined following the death of their son that Richard had become infatuated with Lizzie. So yeah, Richard wasn't exactly honest with Anne, but Henry on the show is being honest with Lizzie. Henry is also being honest with his mother as well, and no longer buying into any of her BS. He knows that she had the boys in the tower killed and that she killed Jasper Tudor, and admits that he can't forgive her or trust her. I didn't expect him to have his own mother executed or exiled, but if I were him I would've banned her from the court entirely and sent her away to live in a convent. And is there an uncut version of TWQ?

Oh, well... I really didn't watch the Tennant era after Rose. I skipped most of the Martha and Donna stuff, and didn't get back into it until Matt Smith.

Nikki K

Well, 12/Clara are my OTP.

No, in the book he slept with her because he was in love with her. Something that annoyed me because there is not even a historical hint at it. I mean the show plays it like Henry flirts with Lady Katherine to humiliate Richard. He says so to Lizzie himself when Lizzie gets jealous in one of the last epsiodes if I recall. He tells her that it's not real that he's just doing it to rile Richard up. In the book it was ambiguous - like it was all Lizzie's POV so we never got to hear Kathy's side obviously. Lizzie was just suffering because her husband was in love with another woman. I suspect that while not outright rape Kathy felt that she had to go along with it to keep her husband safe so yeah, it was some sort of coercison and therefore quite distateful. Like you said, Gregory doesn't seem to think much of Lancaster/Tudor.

Again, I preferred it that way. Which is why I watch the cut rather then the uncut version. Mainly because again – historically after Anne Neville's death Richard was trying to arrange a marriage for himself with Joanna, Princess of Portugal. All the rumours regarding Elizabeth were really just to shame Henry.

Yeah, you watched the uncut version. That's the one that had the Lizzie/Richard incest scene in one of the last episodes. I always opt out of that on my DVDs.

I liked Martha but a lot of the episodes of that season were poorly written with a few exceptions... like Smith & Jones, The Shakespeare Code, Blink, Utopia and The Sound of Drums. The rest was soso or meh.

I couldn't stomach Donna. Positively hate her.

Nikki K

BL.Arinna_1982

Thank you so much for bringing that vid here!

PhoenixRising

Thanks, Nina. Arinna showed me that vid after she saw you posted it. Unfortunately, since then, YouTube blocked it due to copyright claim from Lionsgate. It won't play anymore.

Wait, so Henry did fall in love with Catherine? Or is it Katherine? But thanks for confirming that Katherine was doing so against her will, since she was in love with Richard and trying to protect him. But it does make Henry come off really bad. Yep, it's not difficult to figure out that Philippa Gregory was a Yorkist and biased against the Lancaster/Tudor.

Wait, the cut version of TWQ deletes the Richard/Lizzie incest scene? Well that's gotta be confusing for people who saw the cut version of TWQ and then saw TWP where the very first scene shows Richard and Lizzie committing incest in a flashback to the day before the Battle of Bosworth field. They would've been like, WTF??? When did that happen? And I'm glad I saw the uncut version because I watched the first episode of TWP before I started watching TWQ, so I'd have been disappointed not getting to see that scene so it could provide more context. As I've said, TWP didn't start making sense to me until after I watched TWQ in its entirety.


I think the only Martha era episode I watched was Don't Blink, and she was hardly in that one. That was an early Carey Mulligan performance before she became a famous Hollywood actress. And I did like Donna in Partners In Crime, but again, I didn't watch most of those episodes.

Nikki K

Ach, that sucks about the video. It was a good one too which explained some historical context.

It's Katherine but I told you before that spelling is totally irrelevant especailly back then there was no unified way of spelling things, people even spelled their names however they saw fit on a day to day basis.

I was glad that they didn't play it that way on TWP. This way Henry still looked somewhat awful but at least he didn't cheat on Lizzie, not even emotionally, it was just one of his devious ploys that he probably learnt from his mother. Old habits dying hard and such.

In the cut version, which I prefer, everything is the same except there is no incest sex. Which in all honesty when I finally saw the uncut version I found totally stupid for merely logistic reasons – how on earth would Lizzie have made it to the battlefield at Bosworth to spend the night with Richard anyway? I wouldn't say it makes no sense – it could have been a dream sequence or something, after all that I buy (but only in the Greogry book and TWQ, not in reality, see Alison Weir's biography!!!) that Lizzie may have been infatuated with Richard, so I put it down as something she imagined/wishful thinking.

The episode was just called 'Blink'. And there wasn't a Donna episode I liked because I simply despise Donna for reasons I explained.

BL.Arinna_1982

I liked that in Henry and Lizzie. They truly loved each other, no matter what. And I think that was something rare in those days.