Ropetuned

I'm already exhausted from this season between the negativity of the fandom and how they've ruined Octavia/her relationship with other characters

destroyer of worlds

Agreed.

I’m just tired of TPTB tampering with this relationship just for the sake of creating drama and showing us that they’re different people after six years. That makes sense but there’s also a way of them to have a good relationship even despite that and I feel like the show hasn’t done a great job in conveying that recently.

CloudyDreamer

I completely agree, but that's not what I was arguing with. I still don't think you're understanding me, so let me give you an example to illustrate what I mean.

I agree with people who say "The gladiator pit is wrong, but this doesn't make Octavia evil."
I object to people who say "The gladiator pit is a good moral course of action, regardless of who is running it." (I've seen many people elsewhere express this type of sentiment.)

The former is sympathizing with Octavia's character. The latter is justifying the morality of her action. The two statements are two completely different things, and it's the latter I have issue with. Do you get me now?

April7739

Well, I fell behind on the discussion, but . . . I’m just popping in to say that I love that Bellamy bested Octavia in a physical fight.

Karma Police

I think Lisa understands you but it's irrelevant to this board since I don't think any of us were saying this. People around the Internet say a lot of things we don't agree with, let them be wrong and focus on the good aspects of dicsussion. I'm Paulina btw, welcome to the board!

BlueDog9

Bellamy beating her in the fight and calling her out for murdering people later was so good. The context of their fight is still a big issue.



https://bellamyblakepositivity.tumbl...wounds-trailer

CloudyDreamer

I wasn't criticizing anyone on this board for saying this. I brought up people elsewhere justifying the morality of her actions because I wanted to explain the source of my frustration with the Octavia issue. When Lisa brought up the need to have sympathy for her character, it was my way to explain that I agree with her, that the source of my frustration isn't with Octavia herself.

I know that what other people say elsewhere may be irrelevant here but I would think explaining my personal feelings wouldn't be.

April7739

Yes. He needs to stand up for himself at some point, not for someone else.

Overall, I liked the fight, though, as they both dropped some truth bombs on each other.

destroyer of worlds

Same. I wish that it would have been him standing up for himself more in that fight but it's a good start! And he was clearly not afraid of standing his ground even up to the end of the episode, when it came to Octavia.

April7739

Octavia lucked out this week. Even though she once again did some very questionable things, a lot of people online are too busy talking about her brother to rant about her right now.

destroyer of worlds

I feel like at this point, we're desensitised to some of her actions. Though in her defense, she did freak out a bit at Bellamy being outside when they thought Diyoza was dropping bombs or what not, or when Bellamy wanted to leave to be the spy. I hope that we continue to see that glimpse of her caring about her brother, like that. Last week was honestly WAY worse in terms of the Blakes relationship, IMO.

Karma Police

I know you weren't criticizing anyone here and my reply didn't mean you can't share your personal feelings, that's all we do here. We just barely ever bring stuff over from other places like reddit, twitter, etc. because it's kind of a safe place, we're living in a bubble over here and a lot of us are not involved with the fandom outside of this board. I know how frustrating the fandom can be, I used to be active on twitter and tumblr, just decided for myself to stick to this board, makes it a more fun and enjoyable experience. But as mentioned in the beginning, not telling you you can't share your personal feelings, just wanted to shed a light on why there is not much discussion about the fandom here.

Ropetuned

There are certain fandoms I'm a part of on Reddit and Tumblr and some that I just can't with. I've found that the fandoms of shows that are over/have been for a long time are usually the most copacetic and non-combative

I just think that while it's great to have a difference of opinion and have an in depth discussion, you have to question of the obnoxious ones even enjoy the show and have fun or just get off on negativity

Sorry /rant

I did think it was hilarious that Bellamy won that fight and my anxiety levels are through the roof. You know that the characters aren't in danger and the
Blakes are two characters they'd refrain from killing off as long as possible

I loved that look of complete confusion on Bellamys face. He really doesn't know who she is anymore.

CanIcallYouKate

Hey Iris
I'm Kate



Sarah, I am so late to the game here, it ain't even funny anymore LOL


I have to say, I do not agree. First of all, articles/ opinions that pretty much end in saying, if you do not prescribe to my view then you are blind/ excusing this type of behavior/ do not understand what is happening etc. make me bristle immediately.


Also statements like "everyone had a crappy life and you do not see them starting a blood sport cult" (I am paraphrasing here) is for me on the same level as people saying "everyone's had it tough, Jasper, just quit your whining and get over it". And that does not sit right with me. People and relationships and experiences are intricate, complex and often incomparable. Two people go through a similar event / experience and come out of it completely differently, in large part because of how their previous life has shaped them.


* on a side note and not really relevant to the Blakes, what are these instances where Octavia has been abusive to Indra? What am I missing here?



I won't go into too much detail because I have discussed this topic so many times in here and episode threads over the years and recently with regards to the term "toxic" used to describe the Blakes relationship. So "abusive" is another trigger word for me but it encompasses exactly what other people have called toxic lately.


In general, I find myself more in alignment with the opinion Paula expressed in this discussion (a lot of it pertains solely to Octavia and her actions in s05 so far in general and not necessarily in relation to her brother )


I have called Octavia a brat, immature, annoying, childish etc. when it comes to her blaming others/ not having to suffer consequences of her actions/ not having to bear responsibility like the people she so frequently criticizes (her brother and Clarke above all). However, when it comes to season 5 Octavia, I feel differently.



I may go as far as calling their dynamic up to this point in time unhealthy and dysfunctional because there was a level of co-dependency owing to the way they both grew up that prevented them from becoming independent adults but we're past this now.


In a way, Bellamy has spent 6 years suspended in a "bubble" with regards to his sister, whereas Octavia had a lot more going on that changed her in the time jump. I'd argue that Octavia's development has been more influenced by factors outside her control than Bellamy's. I've made this point in the past that I think O's character arc has largely been defined by her relationships with other people (not to say that is not true for every character but more so for her, I feel) than Bellamy's.



She took on "roles" if you will over the seasons, from a daughter/sister (Bellamy), daughter/student (Indra), girlfriend/partner (Lincoln) and it defined her more than other characters for whom I saw more of an independent development as a character. I am not sure I am wording this well enough to get my point across unfortunately. A lot of what I am saying is also owed to the fact that O is quite a bit younger than Bellamy and had no interactions or relationships with anyone for the first 16 years of her life other than her brother (and I presume their mother). That cannot be healthy and while not excusing Octavia's more questionable actions, it informs her state of mind.


So bloodreina is the latest "role" Octavia has taken on and there is even the possibility that she is unable to distinguish the bloodreina personality from the "old" Octavia. Were it not for the glimpses of a loving sister that we got, her shocked reaction to Indra's blunt "I love you", my outlook would be more bleak for sure.



I do want to make clear that I do not excuse all of Octavia's actions. Nor do I think citing Octavia's life as a an explanation of her mindset is a cheap way out. I think that eventually, characters have to overcome the pain of the past or at least find an accommodation, a way of coping, simply a way to live with their hurt.


Like I keep saying, I do not think anyone is beyond redemption (on this show anyway) and I expect Octavia will be redeemed. Maybe not to everyone's satisfaction but also not everyone was happy with Bellamy's redemption arc either. And that's ok, we all feel differently and very strongly about these characters and that's what makes it so interesting
I'll stop here for now but I'd be happy to discuss more. And I apologize that a lot of my post is redundant with points I've made earlier.



We do often circle back to the same topics

April7739

Kate, I’m not one to throw around words like “abusive” and “toxic,” either, but . . . I have to say that I think that’s kind of what the Blakes one has become. I enjoyed reading your thoughts—very well-articulated, by the way—but where I’m at with this is that, despite empathizing with and even sympathizing with Octavia’s very traumatic and unusual life and all the circumstances beyond her control that have led to this development . . . there just comes a point, to me, where I say, “Look, I feel horrible for you, and I don’t want to give up on you, but the way you’re treating your brother and the things you are saying to him are NOT RIGHT. And since you have been doing this repeatedly, it’s become quite toxic.” That’s where I’m at with her. I want her to be redeemed, but I honestly don’t know if she will be.

I feel like, if Octavia could grasp how toxic she’s been to Bellamy, then (and only then) could she fix it, and thereby fix some of herself in the process.