tslpsh

But Summer becoming a genius from party girl when she never studied? Good point about Ryan, maybe I meant more season 4. I agree about season 2. I never liked OTH I stopped watching after 1 episode.

starryeyesxx

I've really gotta disagree with that statement. People do change, especially at the ages that these characters were - they were in high school, they were making the transition from kids to adults, they did change. I know that I personally have changed loads from who I used to be, & so have a load of people that I know, some for the better, & unfortunately some for the worst.

~Search4Truth~

I never said they changed. Even if they had, however; I have to agree with Sophie. People CAN change. I have seen this with my very own eyes. Even I have changed.

Back to Ryan and Summer. What I said is that they grew up and matured and improved as people. Who they were remained inherently the same. I used to always be angry and I had a nasty temper and I overcame that and learned to be happy. My best friend used to always fight, and now he doesn't get into fights anymore and he's matured and learned to control his anger. Good people grow up and strive to be better. It's a part of life. They'll fall short from time to time, but they're always trying to do the right thing. If they don't, then there may be something wrong with them internally that they need to confront.

From The Pilot, the writers made it clear that Ryan was inherently a good person. As Dawn said, "You were always the smart one. The good one." For him to have exhibited more flaws on the show would have been for him to regress as a person and quite frankly would have been out of character because from the very beginning, his character represented that kid who always means well and is always trying to do the right thing (even towards his enemies) even if sometimes his way of handling it is the wrong approach. As he grew up and took Sandy's guidance, he learned to handle things the right way. He didn't change. He just grew up.

starryeyesxx

Umm, I think it wasn't that she was a genius, but that she had a high aptitude - i could be completely wrong I can't remember, but I think it wasn't meant to be about how she knows a lot, but that she has potential & people should stop writing her off as the stupid party girl. I'm not saying it's realistic, but I think it was meant to just add a bit more depth to her character, & also to provide more storylines obviously.

~Search4Truth~

Ryan wasn't even Mary-Sue in S2. He was Ryan. Imagine being in his shoes. Imagine having just been in Chino with a girl you don't love... miserable and working a full time, rigorous job to pay the bills with the stress of being a teenager and having a baby on the way.

When he came back to the Cohens, he was so RELIEVED to be back that he just wanted to be a kid for a change and be drama free. He always was a nice guy and a playful guy. He also always cared about school. In the beginning, it wasn't that he didn't care about school. He just felt he had no hope. Sandy gave him hope. Throughout the show we learn that he has always loved to read and is very knowledgeable about a lot of things. In S2 he was just showing more of who he REALLY is now that he feels more comfortable around his environment. There was a stretch of episodes in S1 where every time he is alone in the pool house, he is seen studying or reading. No kid is going to mouth off that quote about social security to Sandy in The Pilot if they weren't extremely intelligent and well read.

He just got to show it more in S2 before Trey came into the picture. He didn't change at all. He just showed another layer of his character and let his guard down so to speak (unmasking a different side to his personality). If anything, that makes him a more COMPLEX character.

Just because a character is a great and sweet person (and somewhat dorky or into school) and just because they don't have many flaws, doesn't mean they are "Mary-Sue" like. Ryan had his flaws still and he worked on them like we are supposed to do in real life.

And don't get me started on S4. I love S4 Ryan so much because I completely relate. There was a period of time where I went through a series of terrible things and was extremely depressed and angry. A year later, I realized it wasn't worth being depressed and my personality changed completely. I went from always being closed off and guarded to being affable and friendly and open with everyone.

These changes DO and can happen. If you knew me in real life, I'd let you ask anyone who knows me now and knew me then. It's true.

That's exactly what it was, and it's is realistic actually. When I was in high school, one of my friends scored nearly perfectly on his SAT but he almost never showed up to class and was failing. It is very possible to have high aptitude but just not apply yourself.

The point of the storyline was to show that if Summer just applies herself, she is just as smart as everyone else. Completely realistic. Again, I know this from experience.

starryeyesxx

yeah, ITA, I wasn't saying that he was a Mary-Sue in season 2, I just was saying that the was the season that you got to see the 'best' side of him, I can't think of one thing he did in that season that made him look bad or that the fans didn't like, & I'm not saying that means the writers were just making him flawless or that they'd forgotten about his character, I think that was very much who Ryan really was & who he would've always been if he had the opportunity & wasn't brought up in the situation that he was.

~Search4Truth~

Exactly. Ryan in general was just a great person. From the beginning of the series we learn about what a sweet and mature guy he is. When faced with obstacles and a rough past, there are two directions a child can take. They can go the Trey route or they can go the Ryan route. As Dawn said in The Gamble, Ryan was always a sweet and smart and well behaved kid. He was always trying to help her and he was always acting like the adult. He was the one cooking at home. He was the one paying the bills. He's a very admirable guy, and it is extremely realistic that someone who has been through that much and survived (and who hsa a positive role model in their life like Sandy) is going to be extra mature for their age and able to give others a deeper perspective on things.

That's why I love him so much. The way Ben played him was just perfect. You see this very sweet guy who is always trying to help everyone and often neglects himself.

I'd say that was his biggest flaw. He often would help people at the expense of his own happiness. He neglected himself. He lived in the context of others. He was looking for love because he had never received it growing up as a child, and he held everything in and often didn't let people in on his thoughts or fears. That was his Achilles heal, and it is actually a major one because it can ruin someone in the end.

Nevertheless, Ryan was one of the most complex and multi-dimensional characters on the show in my opinion. He was so layered, and the fact that he seemed flawless makes him that much better because his flaws were such that you have to think deeper to find them or understand them, but when you realize what his flaws are, you see that they are actually very unhealthy for him and can be detrimental to his well-being and are the reason he was often caught in situations where he was endangered.

starryeyesxx

ITA & I def think Ryan had a savior complex, & I think that might have come from all the people that he grew up around that he couldn't save. He couldn't save his dad from going to prison, or Trey from going down the same path, or Dawn from drinking or whatever abusive boyfriend she had that week. I personally think flaws make a lot of characters more interesting & I don't mean flaws as in someone bad, bringing in a bad guy...i.e. Volchuk, he was a bad guy, but he was one dimensional imo, just look how 'good' characters can be on dimensional. I'm not saying this very well, but was I mean is, people are starting to find the darker characters more interesting on shows, but just bc they talk mean & have attitude doesn't make them any more developed.

The thing I'm uploading is going to take half an hour, so I can't post the recap until then

~Search4Truth~

Precisely. A lot of people feel a character has to have negative flaws to be complex, but I think it's actually the other way around. I agree completely that Volchok was a rather one dimensional character.

If anything, the good guy who evolves as a person is always far more complex because at one time in their life, they were at a point where they could have chosen to go the negative route, but they decided to be a good person. It takes a lot more effort to be good than it does to be bad, and all protagonists have flaws. On The OC, I'd consider Ryan the flawed hero. The very thing that makes him a hero in many people's eyes is actually what often almost lead to his demise: his hero complex as you said, and even in trying to ditch his hero complex in S3 with Jess, he still couldn't escape it as we see later on when he punches Volchok in the 24th episode of S3 and when he saves Taylor from her marriage to her French husband.

starryeyesxx

yeah, even the whole Ryan/Taylor thing started bc he had to save her! I know a lot of people felt that he overcame his complex by being with Taylor & not someone who had drama like Marissa, but I disagree, I mean I do realise that R/T had a very different relationship to R/M, but that doesn't mean that Ryan himself changed. Marissa was someone who very much needed to be saved from physical circumstances, but I think Taylor needed saving from her emotional problems, bc it was very clearly stated that she had issues - but they passed them off as comedy most of the time so the fanbase overlooked them.

The point is, I would've liked to see Ryan get over the hero complex - & not even have it be about a romantic relationship, but in the way that he relates to all people.

~Search4Truth~

Yeah, he didn't change at all with Taylor. He was still the savior. He was still the protector. He definitely saved her emotionally and also from her French husband. He helped her believe in herself and her self-worth. He also risked his life to protect her during the earthquake when he shielded her with his body (and in the process got injured himself).

S4 Ryan was definitely still Ryan. He was just funnier and more outgoing (slightly, but he was still a loner to me) so some people assume he just changed, but really he didn't. He grew up yes, and he learned to be happy, but part of him was still unhappy (you could tell) and he still had the hero complex. Taylor just didn't put him in situations where he had to activate it all the time, but I guarantee you if Theresa or someone like that came back into his life and was in trouble, once again we would see Ryan to the rescue.

Same here.

starryeyesxx

exactly

I'm glad that we have in depth conversations in here, & that we really understand the characters! & that means that we know who they belong with too

the recap is coming soon!

NewOCFan

Sophie, I liked this.

And I can't see why anyone could not like Summer going from being a party girl, to showing herself more as a smart girl. It wasn't out of the blue, you could just see it there sometimes. She saw things no one else did (the Oliver thing after Ryan beated him up, she also began to think Oliver was up to no good and the whole Johnny thing) brought everyone together for Chrismukkah (which might be arguable because Ryan and Seth had to bring Kirsten and Lindsey together, but I still like the thought of Summer saving Chrismukkah).

Plus, I agree with everyone else who is thinking that Summer kept the genius side of her, the better side of her for that matter, deep down because she was afraid to let it out in case she got hurt again. I don't see how people didn't like Summer in S3. I think I even remember reading on here that by S3, she was the perfect girlfriend and Ryan was the perfect boyfriend by 3 and 4.

And I like to think that Summer can give Ryan the love he always wanted and will want him to put down his hero complex (at the moment, I just thought up a picture of some knight literally letting his guard down, dropping his sword and shield) and open up to her. What makes me love Ryan and Summer especially later in the show is not only did they have a connection and more chemistry than, I think, Seth and her, they looked like they could really get along. Examples are Ryan going into her room to talk about Seth, her laughing at the idea of him having a bar mitzvah, her knowing he's not a good liar (I loved the fact that he was honest a whole lot of the time and I love how Summer says no offense before saying he's not a good liar) them hugging each other, him chasing her on the beach and picking her up sometimes when they swim. I also think that since Summer is really smart, she can avoid trouble and I never thought she had any emotional problems. So Ryan can pretty much not have to be the parent, or a hero anymore if he had her. He could just be Ryan without the hero complex, and much more happier with her than he ever was with Marissa and even Taylor.

Sweetgirl465

Hey guys

thanks for the new thread
40th threads

bengirl25

TFTNT sophie

love the title and thanks for the follow on tumblr
the OP is great i love it

#40

i agree zain