Crack of Doom

It's not so much the dark side. They can't even manage to deal with each other's regular everyday people type of "bad side." Like, babe, I'm PMSin' like a bitch, please don't **** with me right now. Maybe that was too crude, but you get what I'm saying, right? Knowing B/A and how they lurve the melodrama, Angel would be all, oh Buffy, how could you? Wah, wah, wah, people who are in twuwuv4evah do not talk like that to each other. *sob* I go keel myself now.

Buffy: Angel no, let me do the honors! It's more dramatic and heartbreaking this way. [She stabs him in the chest with a sword again, and it devolves into this whole Becoming II redux.]

I know, I'm being cheeky. But hey if Sosa Lola and a few others can crit S/B without me going ape****, it's only fair the rest of you do the same.

Ragnarok

I don't find Buffy's behavior all that difficult to understand if you put aside the notion that she had loved Spike in S6 and early/mid S7.

The Buffy I saw in the first half of S7 had never come clean with anyone about her share of the blame for the S6 disaster. She wasn't especially happy with the person she saw in the mirror. Spike coming back with a soul - having made a genuine, inarguable attempt to accept responsibility for his actions and try to make things better - really put her on the spot. So while she didn't yet love him, she needed to try to help him if only to recover her self-respect.

Post-Bring On The Night, the Buffy I saw never really believed she could beat the First Evil, and she was convinced she would lose by the end of Get It Done. Prior to Bring On The Night, all of the characters were moving to reestablish bonds. After that ep, Buffy began to push all of them away except for Spike. She became excessively focused on "Spike has a soul now" and "Spike can be a good man". Why? Because she needed a win, and that was something she believed she could help him accomplish. Falling in love with him was almost incidental to the process.

It's weirdly similar to her Dawn fixation in late S5, when she concluded she couldn't beat Glory and decided she'd save Dawn even if the world went to hell in the process.

Night Nymph

Interesting observations, Ragnarok. I saw the trying to make things right aspect, but I didn't catch the Dawn end of season 5/Spike parallel of getting the small victory if the larger one seemed out of reach. That is a good point that Buffy perhaps saw helping Spike as a worthwhile fight that she could win, and the fact that she cared for him and sympathised with his struggle only made her want him to succeed even more.

Crack of Doom

Yes, well, the show did imply that maybe she did in a way. As an episode, Dead Things really makes a good case for it if you believe in obsession/addiction as a valid form of love.

Anyway I'll conceed that there was an element of wanting to win. Although Buffy checking up on Spike in both FD (and let's face it Jane Espenson, the writer of said eppy, is a big ol' soppy Spuffy shipper) and LMPTM did seem more like genuine concern, rather than evangelical determination to keep him on the righteous path. But how does Buffy finding yet another reason to fixate on Spike, disqualify the notion that she fell for/was falling for him before S7? I'm not trying to force you to see things my way (it's a scary place in my head ), I just don't get why it's so crucial to you that she didn't love him in S6. As for why it's crucial to me that she did, I have my usual yay!DysfunctionJunction reasons.

Ok, I really need to stop talking about this, since it's something I never felt the need to overanalyze. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

It was nobody's business really. ETA: Also I think they got the jist that it was badness all around. If they did know the nitty gritty, they'd still take Buffy's side. Heck, I know the nitty gritty, and I sympathize with Buffy just a little bit more than I do Spike anyway.

ashleyt

Okay so this is a great place to vent regarding unfair accusations towards our favourite characters, ships, scenes, etc in hopes that posters will take that negativity out of appreciation threads where they do not belong. Remember that bashing of shippers is still not allowed here (or on any board).

Ash

merveille

One of the most unfair accusations regarding Buffy...I've read was that Buffy gave Spike the necklace in Chosen to get rid of him. WTF? I really don't know how people want to think that Buffy would be such a cold and manipulative bitch

courtneybangelcakes

Have to agree with that one too

One of the most unfair accusations, concerning Angel and IWRY, is the idea that Angel only turned back time because he missed his powers. That is the most biased thing I think I have ever heard in my entire life. Not only did the show not present anything like that to the viewers, the writers and music "people" and others have discussed the sacrifice that Angel made to save Buffy's life. It was never even suggested that Angel wanted his powers back

Burning Up A Sun

Meh I'm still going with the OPers one that Spike left to get his chip out. True the writers wanted to show some confusion on what he was actually going to Africa for but the writer of the episode, David Fury, who has been known not to care for Spike at times, said he went to get his soul. Has even gotten into arguments with fans who said that Spike went to get his chip out. In Beneath You Spike says he went to get his soul. Jane said they always planned for Spike to get his soul. I'm tired of people taking canon and twisting it into something else because they don't like the idea that Spike would go get his soul.

As for the whole Angel thing I don't really understand the point of him turning back the clock, or even if I did understand him turning it back I don't agree with his reasoning. I never understood it and it doesn't make sense to me. But if that's what the writers or more specifically Joss, since I'll believe him over writers more times than not, say I'll believe them. Not that it matters. The day was turned back, Angel remembers and Buffy doesn't. End of story.

And to add to Lara's there's a lot of people who think that Buffy AND Angel conspired about the amulet. That Angel knew what it was going to do and so he gave it to Buffy who then gave it to Spike. That way BA could live happily ever after and never have to worry about Spike coming back. Yeah guess Buffy was lying when she said Spike was in her heart. And even though Spike/Angel don't care for each other they are family. Don't think Angel would be that cruel.

courtneybangelcakes

You don't agree with Angel's reasoning to save Buffy? You wanted her to die? The Powers That Be even say the reason as to why Angel will save Buffy - it is a sacrifice of love. We saw that we needed two Champions in the World to fight evil and with only Buffy, she wouldn't be powerful enough to fight it alone and would eventually die. Angel would rather give up his happiness of being with Buffy as a human, to be without her but her be alive. It just showed how powerful their love was/is. And I don't think Joss would have his favorite episode based on lies, slavery, and vainity.

The Chip thing could of been confusing at first, but after Beneath You - it is pretty clear that Spike went to go get his soul. Joss has even said that was a plot twister. That all along Spike was getting his soul.

Burning Up A Sun

It's not that I don't agree with him saving her, but I don't understand his reason for wanting to be turned back. What is he saving her from? I think that's my question. I mean the oracles said that what the demon said about the darkness or whatever coming was true and all mortals will die. But they also said that it's what mortals do, die. Maybe I just don't remember what the oracles said exactly but Buffy will die. She's human. I don't get how him turning back the day helps anything. And she did die in The Gift. I honestly don't get it. You just said that we saw that the world needed two Champions in the world to fight evil and with only Buffy she wouldn't be powerful enough to fight it alone and would eventually die. But I mean she did die, twice. And not to mention that like I said before, she's human. She's going to die. He gave up his happiness for her so she could be alive but then it didn't really change anything. I'm not trying to belittle that scene or what he did but it just doesn't make sense to me.

courtneybangelcakes

She would of died earlier. Angel and the others didn't know she would die in The Gift - if they had known that, things could of been different. But with the knowledge they did have they knew 1) that slayers did not live long, 2) without Angel being a vampire, Buffy would be fighting alone, 3) Buffy would most likely die earlier now because she was fighting the battle alone. Angel wanted her to live as long as possible, help as many people as she can, help as many people as he can aswell, and he knew if turned back the day he could change from being turned into a human and these things would most likely happen. Angel was trying to give her as long as a life as possible. And he knew they were both Champions - so he also knew the people they both needed to help.

Burning Up A Sun

But I'm still confused. Without Angel being a vampire again she would be fighting alone and therefore die sooner. Okay, but does that mean he was supposed to help her fight her battles, or just be in his own city fighting and that would help her somehow? And if that's the case then why weren't there things in LA before Angel moved there? Did he move there and every demon/vampire/magical force he fought follow him? I'm just not understanding. I honestly don't mean to argue and that's not what I'm trying to do. I just don't get it. What battle was Buffy going to fight alone if he was still human? He didn't help her fight Adam or the Initiative or Glory or Dark Willow. He offered to help with The First and she said she needed him as the second front. I can see that one being him helping her not fight alone. In the grand scheme of things him fighting in LA helped her not be alone but those things never even reached her or affected her, which goes back to my point that while Angel was still in Sunnydale did those things that he encountered once he moved to LA still happen but nobody knew about them?

And a side question. Are all slayers champions since aside from the BA romance Buffy had and the sacrifices they gave up, they all pretty much save the world on a daily basis?

courtneybangelcakes

There were things always in L.A. and it was Angel's purpose to help fight evil in that city. And if he wasn't a vampire - think of how many lives they would of lost. They still lose some no matter what, but he is there now helping them and that is what he wants to do. And that is a major reason why TPTB brought him back.

And Buffy would be fighting alone in the sense that Angel wouldn't be out there helping her with the fight against all evil. There was always a chance that Buffy would die, and we don't know the future , but Angel made the sacrifice to help in any way possible to keep her alive longer. Like I said, they don't the future, but Angel knew if he was a vampire and had the stength to help people he would 1) obviously help more people 2) possibily give Buffy a longer life. And you have to think about it like this - If Angel was human, they would of stayed together and Buffy would be fighting alone in that sense too because Angel wouldn't be strong enough. So if they were in LA or Sunnydale or wherever fighting - it would only be Buffy fighting alone. So that makes sense too.

And they could be viewed as Champions but I am guessing that most of them died before they could become Champions maybe?

Do you analyze every single episode like this?

fall like stars

ITA, Courtney. That's exaclty how I've always seen it.

courtneybangelcakes

Agreed And how the writers explained it