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Intriguing thought and one might argue that his hesitation after Gunn proposed "unless you're so hyped on the ghostin' life that you want her to join you" indicates that he did give it at least a moment's thought.

I've thought about that as well. The last time he saw her was when she left to meet Angel at the beach.
Angel had her framed photo of them and Wes (the same one Wes used in Pylea to prove to the human refugees that he was a friend of the princess) at W&H indicating that at least he went to clear her apartment out. If anyone else went with him hopefully they filled Dennis in since Angel wouldn't being unable to talk about it.

I imagine that Dennis kept all potential new tenants away since her disappearance old school haunting style, ya know.

Ugh, I do NOT want to even think about that. I like Fred even though she wasn't the most useful character but I will always resent her for this and even more so because her whole thing was similar in concept to Cordy's but she came back from it---well part time but it's something.

It's my theory that she's not half-demon at all but half-higher being.
Think about it, her powers seem to be light based, she needed to ascend to the higher plane to host what would suggest a rogue higher being and Doyle was half demon but still suffered from the vision headaches but when Cordy got these new powers, no more vision headaches.

That would have been a great angle to explore.

It's still a WIP, I'm about halfway but it will go up at the Oasis. I've exchanged some emails with Lysa and I think she's willing to beta for me.

Agreed, with the clothes having been less effective as was done quite well in Deal with a Demon.

Yes. I love past Sunnydale especially BtVS seasons 1-3 Buffy getting a load of AtS Angel.

Probably.

straws

slayer comma the

I never caught that.

I wonder if Angel was even able to step foot in her apartment and look through her stuff or if he had someone else do it.

Do you think they kept her apartment while she was in a coma? They probably hung onto it until after YW.

I hate to think of a new tenant exorcising Dennis.

Maybe Dennis was able to move on to the after life.
Basically THIS. I have found a way to appreciate Fred after so many re-watches but I'd be lying if I said a part of me won't forever be bitter over exactly that.

And Fredlyria is even end game with Angel in the comics. I can't.


I hate them together. They are like Xander/Anya part 2. Angel just looks embarrassed and Illyria says inappropriate sexy things because of her non-human status.

True, could have been interesting.

Maybe they didn't want to make her more powerful than Angel.

That's awesome. Please let us in the CA thread know when it's up on AO.

Same. It feeds me.

Especially because of how Cordy, Conner, and Angel's characterization were erased from existence for *that scene* in Chosen.

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So stinkin' cute! In the first one, DB looks like protective Angel: "Stay behind me, I'll make sure it's safe."
And CC's got on that 'mega-watt smile' or '100-watt smile' as C/A fanfic authors like to call it.

Tbh I only caught that because of scenes used in a fanfic on YT.

Oh true, it might have been emotionally impossible to set foot in her apartment, the apartment they presumably shared after the 'Tu Shanshu in LA' office explosion.

That's my theory. Angel certainly would have insisted on it out of denial that there was no hope of her waking.

I would think that it would take someone pretty powerful to exercise him, like Willow.
I hope he moved on as well.

Oh, jumping Judas on a unicycle, I want to unsee that.
And of course, she sees Buffy as the threat because she knows nothing of Cordelia!
Angel's embarrassment is hardly a consolation, though his expression is funny because he's apparently embarrassed because of B/S vs. that Illyria has the wrong idea about their relationship.
Does Fred go along with this? I hope not, she was the Kyrumption ambassador.

Wow, that never occurred to me. Now I'm wondering even more if going this route in another fic I'm working on is too rediculous on top of too cheesy.

Well duh.

Indeed I would have liked to see the part of the conversation in which Angel was supposed to tell Buffy that he loved Cordy and about Connor. I feel C/A was once again robbed because Buffy never had any notion of it but Angel had to deal with B/S and I don;t get their bull**** reason about confusing their stories for removing it.

fractured moonlight

The whole confusing their stories really was such bull****. Just an excuse for them. Ugh!

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*annoyed sigh* Yeah pretty much.

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Haha. I love that that's a staple of CA fic.

I'm sorry for posting it, but I needed somebody to share in my distaste.

I haven't read the issues where Illyria and Angel first get together personally, but I read a summary of the events and apparently Fred condones Illyria using her body to be with Angel.
Fanfic is meant to explore the avenues the show didn't take, so I say write what you want. As for being 'cheesy,' I think this show has given us enough pain that we deserve fluff and cheese in our fics lol.

Amen.

Even the podcast I'm listening to (Still Pretty) called it out. It really was just about giving BAs a scene in the finale and hooking them in so that they would possibly watch ATS S5.

It's interesting that Angel wasn't 'all about Buffy' again until #1: Cordy was in a coma & #2 Spike actually had something real with her. Like she was a constellation prize because he couldn't have Cordy. He also seemed to care more about Spike "having her" than actually wanting to be with her himself. Not a good look, Angel.

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And this is how I shall Segway into my RWAV pic spam.

I wanted more of CA being roommates.

C: "Get this. I tried to call Doyle. I have sunk that low. And there was no answer. So, here I am. Not that you’re the last resort. It’s just that I have nowhere else left to go. Roaches. Live one, dead ones. All skinny feet and creepy antlers.”
A: “Antlers?”


C: "I am dying for a shower. I – actually smell! Smell me. I never smell. I didn’t know I could. - I’m just going to have to stay here until I can find a decent place, however long that takes, and when I do you are completely invited over. Hey, you can just dump my stuff on the couch – or let me have the bed. What ever you feel good about. Also, my suitcase is still out in the hall. Your shower is in here, right? You have mousse? – Of course you do.”


A: “You got peanut butter on the bed.”

C: “Angel, at some point in the recent history *you* got peanut butter on your bed, and it’s gross. I think you’re gonna have to change the sheets.”
A: “I don’t eat.’
C: “Well then, I don’t even want to know how it got there.”



A: “And the reason there is a wet towel on my leather chair?”

C: “Hi! I was just wondering if you had any linoleum glue – for if it started curling up all over.”


A: “Cactus – housewarming present.”
C: “Oh, hi – thanks.”

C: “I am not giving up this apartment!”
A: “It’s haunted.”
C: “It’s rent controlled!”
D: “Cordy, it says ‘die’!”
C: “Hey, maybe it’s not done. Maybe it’s ‘diet’. That’s friendly. A little judgmental, sure. (to Angel) I’m not giving it up. It’s perfect and beautiful. It’s so me. I need it!”
A: “You don’t need this. It’s just a place. You’re more than that.”
Cordy: “How? How am I more then that?”




A: “You know, this really is just a place to live.”
C: “No, It’s more. It’s beautiful, - and if it goes away it’s like..”
A: “Like what?”
C: “Like I’m still getting punished.”
A: “Punished. (Cordy nods) For what?”
C: “I don’t know. For what I was? For everything I said in High School just because I could get away with it? - And then it all ended, and I had to pay. - Oh, but this apartment – I could be me again. Punishment over – welcome back to your life! Like, like I couldn’t be that awful if I get to have a place like that? - It’s just like you!”
A: “Working for redemption.”

A: “You *do* know what to do. You can stop all this. Do it.”
C: “I can’t.”
A: “Look at you. Are you gonna let her *do* this to you? Damn it. You’re Cordelia Chase.

C: “Back off! Polygrip. - You think *you’re* bad? Being all mean and haunty? Picking on poor pathetic Cordy? Well, get ready to haul your wrinkly translucent ass out of this place, because lady, the bitch is back.”
Maude: “Do you think that I’m going to take that from trash like you?”
C: “I tell you what I think. I think that you’re going to pack your little ghost bags and get the HELL OUT OF MY HOUSE!”

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WTF? Did Illyria **** with Fred's brain?! That's not Fred-like at all! Ugh. I'm done with this topic. That comic series is dead to me.

I disagree. I don't believe Buffy was a consolation prize.

She was another beige period Darla thing in 'Chosen'. That kiss, I believe was his attempt to feel something again after he'd been numbed by the loss of Cordelia and Connor.

Then in s5 of AtS she was a need to regain superiority to Spike by preventing him from reaping the benefits of having an uncursed soul, benefits he didn't have, couldn't offer Cordelia.
Just look at how he seemed to lose interest in the Shanshu after losing Cordelia and Connor and only suddenly regained it when he found out that Spike was a candidate. It got to the point where once again he fell into the trap of lies which pitted him against Spike in a childish wrestling match over a fake chalice of Mountain Dew.

It was like beige period redux: 5-year-old's edition. Damn did he ever need a Cordy spanking!

That's my viewpoint anyway.

~~~~~~~


Oh bless her soul, Cordy was the worst house guest.

That cute innocent wet towel look:


and the peanut butter was so deliciously suggestive.
Not to mention all the scrumptious shirtless Angel.

Fics do an excellent job giving us insight into Angel as Cordelia's houseguest which is presumed to have been the case after his building was blown up in 'Tu Shanshu in LA'.

straws

Well put. I can see all this.

And let's not forget about how as soon as Cordy died Angel was all "Time for a suicide mission against the Circle of The Black Thorn!"

It was so jarring and disappointing that ATS as a show went to great lengths to stand on its own without needing BTVS as a crutch and succeeded...and then suddenly, in S5, ATS and Angel have regressed and once again suddenly orbit one Buffy Summers.

As for RW/AV, I always wondered why he got her a cactus as a house warming gift. It was cute that he got her something, but why a cactus? BC she's lovable but prickly? Is there something about house warning gift customs that I don't know?

I've been watching a bit of con vids again and I found two AC mentions.


Who’s Buffy’s greatest love ? (Paris Manga)
“I think the relationship with Spike was more what we deal with in a long term relationship.” - Kristine Sutherland
“Spike and Buffy, Cordelia and Angel” - Charisma Carpenter


"That was the beauty of Angel and Cordelia, they were friends first." - Charisma Carpenter (21 mins in)

I love that CC continues to captain CA.

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Oh yeah, NFA was totally a suicide mission.
It wasn't just Angel, all the remaining team had fallen into a state of forlornness, had given up on reasons to live, had lost their wills. Even Spike who at his core resented being brought back because having died a hero had brought him a sense of completeness.

Angel's entire undercover thing with the Black Thorn is the reason I feel it was in ATF that Cordelia had truly gotten him back on track as opposed to YW.

The sad thing is that NFA was still better than the final battle in 'Chosen' because Spike's aforementioned sacrifice invalidated the whole season let alone made the final battle anti-climatic. Not that am an army of ubervamps made that earth-shattering a final battle to begin with and what exactly happened to The First? It sorta just disappeared.
Though I do get why it didn't cross over to AtS, Angel already faced off with it so even with totally new ammo on The First's side that would've still been old news.
Actually, Hamilton ended up playing a similar role during Angel's battle with him (ie: throwing Doyle's, Cordelia's and Fred's deaths in his face which BTW is one of the Cordelia brush-offs that pisses me off, the one that seemed the most deliberate at that because he emphasized Fred's name instead of hers).

Interesting observation and ironic because after SMG had turned down YW and TGIQ (she'd lost an aunt then had a subsequent scheduling conflict when she started shooting for The Grudge from what I've been told), she then offered to appear in NFA but Joss's sensible side made a rare appearance as he declined to avoid having her eclipse or share Angel's spotlight in his own finale.
I expect that might have been the reason Buffy sent Angel home in 'Chosen' script-wise, to preserve her spotlight in her finale.

Probably because Cacti need very little water and didn't he make some comment about her neglecting the plants in the office in an earlier episode? Or possibly earlier in that episode. I should really watch it again. It's been a while.

The parallel to her personality; pretty but painful would be clever though.

YUS! Joyce ships B/S and recently Joss himself came out as a B/S shipper.

We just need to SMG to get on board, last I heard she still ships B/A. A few years ago I even saw her call DB 'my Angel' on his birthday on Twitter. Fortunately, it was just the one time, or at least I only caught it the one time.
Now I'd die if I saw CC do that!

Squeeeee! I love her so much! I'm kinda girl crushing on her! She's amazing. She has the same passion for humanity as AtS!Cordy does!

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Some pretty. I wish this promo was in HD and I wish it was longer.

I still need to read ATF. It's waiting for me on my computer, I'm just finishing Buffy S10 first.

The First sucked as a villain and S7 was a convoluted, lacking mess but I actually love Chosen. I love Spike's sacrifice. It was honestly the best and most heroic death he could've been given - he was finally a Champion. *sniffs*

JM is great in ATS S5, doing his thing as per, (even if the writing for Spike makes him too much of a comedy mule for me) but I kinda wish he stayed dead just cause he went out on such a high. But that's another topic.

Anyway, I know Buffy's decision in Chosen gets a lot of crap but I kinda love it? The whole show we've heard "the chosen one" "she alone" "one girl in all the world." Lone Slayers to be rinsed and repeated and used by the patriarchal Watcher's Council and in the finale Buffy turned the rules on their head and said "you know what? **** those old guys. It's not my power - it's our power" and it gives me chills and empowers the **** outta me and makes me feel like a goddamn slayer. so, yeah.

I also love NFA. I last scene 'let's get to work' is the entire mission statement of the show. Fighting even though you know you can't win. I hate a lot of what comes before that though. Angel killing Drogyn is crazy OOC for me.
I will rationalize that it's because Fred's death was the freshest but I feel you. :/

Absolutely.

Ye gads. I can't even imagine how awful Chosen would've been if Angel had stuck around until the end. Also he might have burnt up in the sun bc good old SunnyD was destroyed and the bus wasn't that great of a shield from the sun.

When I think about the fact that CC was Joss' second choice and that Cordelia might not even have been given closure otherwise I feel flames start to come out of the side of my head...

Ahh, that's perfect if so. He knew she wouldn't have to work hard to keep it alive.

Isn't there a scene where she was decorating the hotel with fake plants cause she knew they didn't need sun to thrive? Or am I getting fic mixed up with canon again.

I think SMG is ride or die BA. However, she does appreciate Spuffy fans and tweets with James on Twitter every once in a while so I'm a happy spuffy camper.

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That's so hot, the way she's leaning on his thigh.


You haven't read it?!
I bought all 4 volumes on Amazon. It's a worthwhile read that utterly redeems CA from having been practically erased in season 5.
I guess I'm not one to talk, I've actually still got the first 3 or 4 volumes (through the Connor arc) of Angel & Faith waiting to be read.

I thought The First was pretty badass especially in 'Amends' and I liked Caleb but then again I like Nathan Fillion.

JM is a great actor, I had no idea until I read it somewhere that he not British (The same goes for Alexis Denisof), my problem with Spike in season 5 of Angel despite his humor being... well great (when he feels up Angel after being made corporeal again, I had spoonful of soup inches from my mouth that ended up all over my jeans), he brought nothing to the plot except a setback to Angel's character evolution.
You can just tell he was forced in by the network. Originally he was supposed to go through with leaving after he found out "Doyle" was a phony.

I'm a little unclear on which choice we're talking about, the spell that activated all the world's potentials?
I must disagree. It was hypocritical and inconsiderate.
She whined and protested when she was activated because she had strong feelings about it not being her choice and then turned around and subjected HUNDREDS, THOUSANDS of ignorant girls to the exact same deprivation with no notion of which of them were up for it and which of them weren't (i.e Dana and Amanda, am I remembering the latter right, the one that hung herself?).

Agreed.
NFA while quite morbid was substantial but I concur that his entire Black Thorn undercover deal was OOC, like letting the Fell have the baby.
Though taking the fault for Fred was very Angel.

Ah, I suppose that's sensible.

Ah hell no! I did NOT want Angel to stick around for the entire episode, I barely tolerated him for the one scene he got.

He was so numb and his tone so hard like stone, almost Angelus-esque that I actually questioned if he was The First effing with Buffy. See, now I would have traded the Cordelia and Connor part of the conversation for THAT execution of the crossover.

Yeah mine too.


I don't remember but I feel ya, I've mixed up fic and canon as well.


I haven't seen her post in some time and I've never seen DB and CC talk on Twitter.

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“I mean, that’s like substance, right?”
here vampires, vampires

This parallel. I can't. I love this ship so much.

Also look at how he's looking at her in season one. But CA ~came out of no where~ and had no build up. Okay.

They are so striking together. What a power couple.

I know. For the longest time I wouldn't even touch the comics. I started with A&F S9 because I heard good things and it didn't disappoint. From there I tentatively started reading the higher rated BTVS seasons (11 and 10).

I recently got the A&F library editions and I love them so much.

I thought the WB made it a stipulation, like they said they would only renew Angel if Spike joined ATS. So yes, forced by the network.
I don't know if having a villain that couldn't touch anyone/anything was..er...the best choice narratively...(and I never really understood how bringing Buffy back broke the Slayer line - does that mean that Faith no longer carries the 'activation power?' Was it restored to Buffy? Does it mean that both girls have it? idek) but yeah, Nathan was effectively creepy and hate-able in that role.

Agree to disagree. Like, I get it, I see where that pov comes from but I choose to look at it differently.

Because there are HUNDREDS/THOUSANDS of Slayers no Slayer will ever be forced into the job again. With Buffy, bc she was 'the only one' if she rejected her calling, the world would be left unprotected, so she had no choice. These girls, if they don't wanna be Slayers, they don't have to. There are plenty of other Slayers to do the job. They are basically given super powers they can choose whether to use or not. And if they have a slayer dream they can just call up a working Slayer and be like 'I dreamed of ____ ____ and ___. Take care of it. Bye."

As for Dana, that could have gone wrong regardless of Buffy's choice. I mean, Faith was activated the 'natural way' and she still went dark, so obviously the choosing process isn't without flaws.

IDK I just feel like Joss was using it more of a metaphor (we know how he loves his metaphors) of 'every woman can be strong' 'every girl can be a slayer' and of course this fandom has to take it too literally and dig deeper and make it about Buffy violating the girls. Anyway, I wish Buffy would curse me with super strength/speed/healing and a fast metabolism.

I don't follow their social media that closely but I think CC did like a post about his new show or congratulate him on it, can't remember.

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ETA:

So I checked and there is a scene of her giving him flowers in canon.

-Offspring

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I love how he listens to the Doyle hero story like one of her ogling teenage girlfriends. He's so effing adorkable!
In that second part, how his face gets all panicky when she says "No" and he's like "You're not?" while his eyes are all "What's wrong, tell me how to make it go away!"
*sigh* but bad timing there Angel.

Yeah, I didn't touch the comics for a while either but I bought the first three volumes of BtVS season 8 before I'd finished watching season 7 and before I'd heard all the PCP crap stuff that happens.
In light of that, I Goodwilled them after I finished 'No Future for You' which is a good Faith solo episode.


It touched people emotionally, which is a lot more powerful than physical contact.

Yeah, those are a handful of several questions never answered because the slayer line was never explored.

- How does it even work at all? Since Joyce and Faith's mother (we don't know enough about Kendra's parents since she was purchased from them at a young age to be trained) are not slayers, how did they produce slayers?
- If Nikki Wood had had a daughter instead of a son would that daughter have been born a potential?
- Could she have had a daughter who wasn't?
- Can Robin pass on the gene, as in can it pass to males recessively?
- How did the spell that activated all potentials affect those yet to be born? Are they born slayers or just guaranteed to activate at the age of 16 rather than it just being a possibility when another dies?

I agree to the disagreement agreement.

A Slayer among many can no more ignore the calling than the single existing slayer could. The vampires and demons wouldn't allow it. In fact, having slayers increase in numbers will just double their efforts with the goal being to wipe them out.
There is a novel in which Spike and Drusilla are on such a mission in the early days or so I was once told, perhaps even by you, I can't recall.

Remember Nikki Wood. Spike would have gone after her whether she was the only slayer or not just because she was a slayer either way. So would any other vampire and demon. Hence why she couldn't focus much on being a mother to Robin.

I will, however, grant that I do believe that the original design needed to be updated and that the concept of just one existing at a time is the major flaws.

I recently re-read Lysa's hot PWP 'Baiting a Master Vampire' (the first in an unfinished C/Aus series) which is set on the night of the infamous graveyard tackle during which time Buffy was hospitalized with the flu.
Her Cordelia had a piece of smart Cordelia-snark style narrative that slayers don't have a superpower that prevents them from getting sick.
This made me start thinking about how that situation is a good illustration of how it's senseless that there could only be one slayer at a time because with Buffy barely conscious in the hospital, guess what? There's no slayer!
Not smart sexist pig MALE slayer creators!

I'm wondering if, in fact, it did update itself, through Kendra's and Faith's activation upon Buffy being regarded as dead within seconds of her heart stopping in a time when a heart can be restarted within seconds to minutes of stopping.

Not what I meant.
I was referring to the fact that Dana was already traumatized when she was activated. She was in a mental institution because she was abducted and tortured after witnessing her torturer murder her family and this was just a sick human man (despite her unstable mind inserting Spike into the role). The last thing she needed was REAL monsters coming after her.

Do we find out in the comics if Buffy and the Scoobies were able to help her stabilize and get better? If so power to them but that's the kind of thing Buffy should have considered when she cast the spell.

Interesting, I missed that.
I follow them both on Facebook and Twitter but as with most actors they're most active on Twitter and granted DB mostly tweets about 2 things:
- His current show
- His favorite hockey and football teams (the flyers and the eagles).

CC is very politically opinionated and passionate.
She's kinda like AtS Cordy in the real world where demons don't exist and humanity is the source of its own problems.
She just recently tweeted her sorrow that the wildfires took the set of the Pylea arc which she revealed was among her favorite episodes of AtS.