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Not true.
Don't forget 'The House Always Wins' in which she helped Angel in Vagas from the higher plane or at least tried to and not only became frustrated with her limitations but just flat out got bored and missed her manpire. So wants to go back.

That's not much though, overall, yeah, she was lost to us until 'You're Welcome' and then was lost to us AGAIN!




That is so profoundly and heartbreakingly beautiful. How poetic.

To be fair, that's not inaccurate.
At least half of BtVS was romantic tragedies because it centered around adolescents searching for societal self-fulfillment in spite of an obligation while AtS was more responsibility/consequence heavy as an experienced adult narrative in which the cause was the self-fulfillment.

I can understand how it could be uncomfortable for him to discuss ships subjectively; an actor's career does depend largely on how liked they are and ships are too controversial not to mention sensitive a subject to allow one to please as many fans as possible.

At the same, time, however, if he can be openly honest in response to the reboot backlash, why not the ships?
(https://www.cinemablend.com/televisi...eboot-backlash).

I'm thinking it's more that he's a man and men aren't into romance. So it's just a bleh topic for him hehe.
Think about it, the women pretty openly ship, Charisma Cangel and SMG Bangel (each also with support for Cander and Spuffy, their characters' other popular ships) and you've made an example of James, another male cast member echoing David's sentiment.

I'll bet that in addition, the depths of Angel as an individual and his character growth is more of a topic he can understand and not just because it doesn't involve romance period.
Bangel, in particular, was probably below his maturity level even when he was a part of it on the screen because with the exception of Anthony Stewart Head and probably Kristine Sutherland, he and ironically Charisma were the oldest of the core cast in their late 20's. Plus I'm sure David was never into statutory rape (Sorry, I tried but I couldn't resist) .

Crystal Clear

Ohhhh yeah I hate Season 4 so much that I often forget about the randomness of HigherBeing!Cordy Those were some light relief moments.

Wasn't it implied that Cordelia's intervention when Angel was possessed by the Vegas slot machines provoked her return to Earth?


It's possible that David and James speak out less than the women do about their favorite romances due to the extreme ways that the fandom reacts if you try to avoid picking a side. It's their heavy-handed approach of the fanbase to the entire subject that is embarrassing. People don't accept objectivity with cast answers relating to romance. They want actors to pick ONE couple and one couple only. Like you said, Charisma isn't afraid to promote both Cangel and Cander on her social media accounts That said, she often reminds people that Xander wasn't the perfect boyfriend because he cheated. The Cordy/Xander ship is a sore subject because of the way it ended (and speaking as someone who adored them together, I always thought his affair with Willow was TERRIBLE, forced, non-sensical writing only done to facilitate Charisma's exit ).

The sore object of Cangel is mostly to do with how Cordelia was drastically changed and almost ruined in Season 4 with the Connor plotline... But also, there will always be some people who argue that Angel was only ever meant to be with Buffy and the Cordelia thing was unnecessary. (I would argue back to them that time can bring about change, and the more time he spent with Cordelia allowed them to grow together.)

Some fans refuse to even acknowledge Angel as having had his own show... Which is just bizarre to me.

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Now that I think about it, it's kind of a foreshadowing to her final fate but there is a beauty to both because it profoundly reinforces her love for Angel.

I don't remember, I've never rewatched season 4 except 'Awakening', and someone comparing the fantasy Cangel to Bangel pretty much ruined that episode for me as well.

So basically, the guys are just wusses?
J/K.
It's scary how obsessed people are with fictional ships.

I argue the reverse, that an unwillingness to let Bangel go is the main reason Cangel is a sore spot.
Angel's ships are surrounded by a heavy fog of hypocrisy. Presumably, because he's a 200+-year-old brooding vampire, people forget that his agelessness does not equate an inability to change, to grow and mature as a person. Ergo while Buffy is condoned for moving on, revered as having matured even when she gets to Spike, Angel is largely expected to remain hung up on Buffy for is entire existence. It's infuriating, especially when the displays of the deep closeness and love he felt for Cordelia were blatant.

........

.........
The ****!?
That's not bizarre, that's 'Normal Again' delusional!

At the same time, it's ironic though since he almost didn't.
Angel wasn't meant to return from hell, that was intended to be the permanent end of his character.
Thank the PTB that Joss changed his mind.

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I have such mixed feelings on that episode Having Angel whisper "Buffy?" is something that I maintain was a mistake and unnecessary, even though I understand it was less about her in the moment and more about him re-experiencing losing his soul.


Very true. The double standard has always been rampant when it comes to the subject of moving on. So many people expect Angel to --wait for Buffy forever-- whereas like you said, these same people are happy for Buffy to mature beyond her teenage years and that ultimately means leaving Angel behind and having sexual relationships with other guys.

I never understood people's complaints about Cangel becoming romantic, given how emotionally close Angel and Cordelia became, and the simple fact that they trusted each other more than anyone in their lives at that point.


I remember reading that David's performance as Angel in 'I Only Have Eyes For You' when Angel is possessed by the spirit of the 1950's teacher who an illicit romance with her student, convinced Joss that it was worth giving Angel his own show.

Personally, I never got why people loved David in those scenes so much but I adore that episode, so I love knowing that one of the best BUFFY episodes lay the groundwork for ANGEL becoming a thing.

fractured moonlight

You two always have such great discussions that I love reading.

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Someone on Youtube told me that the writers themselves have clarified that the "Buffy?" whisper was indeed just a case of deja vu pertaining to his first soul-loss experience, not of Angel thinking of her while having sex with Cordy but I concur that it was unnecessary not to mention made no sense.

It comes across as a Bangel reinforcement. It feels as though Joss wanted to retcon Greenwalt's sentiment in 'Heartthrob' of Angel's having moved on from Buffy now that he was gone despite that Joss insisted that the 'Chosen' crossover was not to get them back together and has recently come out as a Spuffy shipper.

That was another thing that ruined that episode for me.
Prior to being told about the deja vu explanation, I hadn't actually known that Angel had whispered Buffy's name, I'd thought it was just a gasp.

Ignorance truly is bliss.

Other girls as well. I'm told that in the comics she has a sexual relationship with another slayer.

Interestingly, I've heard that the Angel & Faith comics inspired a bit of a Fangel fandom but according to what I'm told it doesn't happen. Their relationship/feelings remain entirely platonic and there is even a Cangel mention on pretty much the first page of the first issue.

FAITH: Angel, when Cordelia died, you had everyone at Jacoby, Meyers and Satan working for you. In a world that still had magic. If it coulda been done, you'da done it then.

ANGEL: It's not that cut and dried. There have always been resurrection spells. Wolfram and Hart had dozens. They just aren't used much, because they're hard...dangerous...and they only work on the body. The soul's a whole different thing. You end up with a zombie...or worse.

Now, Angel/Faith is actually the one ship aside from Cangel that I actually feel I could get behind but NO, they had to go with the most horrific ship possible; Angel/Illyria!

That and they gave each other the confidence no one else ever gave either of them.
They made each other stronger because they believed in each other. .

I can't comment on that performance because I haven't rewatched that episode but I'm reminded of a IOHEFY vs. WITW shipwar debate I came across at the Buffy-boards.
It was idiotic.
At least one Bangel fan argued that WITW didn't have the parallel and meaning that IOHEFY did basically because Cangel wasn't a carbon copy of Bangel.

The WITW possession represented Angel and Cordy's unrecognized feelings, insecurities and the free-spirited, inconsequential confidence that Angel lacked.

Personally, 'Passion' is my favorite Angel/Angelus episode in BtVS. Those Angelus monologues were a masterpiece and I thought the flowers and drawings and dead fish were just so brilliantly chilling.

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That is so sweet, thank you I'm glad to know that my posts are more interesting than they are dull

I think it's important to note that both writers of this episode AWAKENING had crossed over from writing for BTVS: David Fury and Steve DeKnight.

This, to me, says it all. Their heads still had Bangel on the mind... Particularly Fury, who had written some big Bangel moments in Season 3.



EWWWW

I don't read the comics, so I had no idea about this.

That is SICK, actually. Surely it would be in Angel's mind that Illyria used to be Fred? Yeah, that's a big NO from me

Then again, Xander and Buffy's sister were made into a couple in the comics from what I've read I just cannot get behind that, knowing that Xander was in love with Buffy for years and always protected Dawn like a father figure. It reminds me of Amy and Laurie getting together years later in Little Women.

I loved the Angel/Faith dynamic on his show, but I never shipped them because they always felt like brother and sister to me.

Still my favorite episode of ANGEL, next to BILLY and ROOM W/A VU I don't care about the mean-spirited people saying it was a knock-off of IOHEFY, because the circumstances were totally different. You can have different possessions. They're just mad that Angel was revealing his true feelings for her in those scenes of WITW.

You and I share the same favorite BTVS episode

I was the biggest Giles/Jenny fan, so that episode broke me.

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Sorry I missed this before.
Thanx, the appreciation is...well appreciated.

Good to know. That certainly makes sense.
Gotta give credit to Fury though for being the #1 supporter of YW going to Cordelia instead of Buffy when SMG declined it.
He called it a "godsend" because "Charisma was outstanding".

I've only read 'After the Fall' and through 'No Future for You' of BtVS season 8 though I have the first 3 volumes of Angel and Faith waiting to be read. I learned this from Straws.

Actually, she still IS Fred part-time. The notion that her soul had been destroyed in season 5 was retconned and according to Straws she approves which is even more wrong on so many levels.
Unless perhaps she agrees that it's wrong but prefers that to Angel finding another Kyrumption. Since you know she was a huge Cangel shipper.

For the record I don't ship Angel/Fred either, I feel more of a sibling vibe between them despite her initial crush on him. Even that was like a child's crush on an adult (i.e the sitter or their kindergarten teacher) with the "handsome man saved me from the monsters" angle.


Seriously? Now there's something I didn't know. Ugh sick!
I don't know Little Women but that reminds me of the whole Jacob/Renesmee thing in Twilight. I cannot believe I was actually into that series but I'm kinda glad I was because I can blame it for the temporary insanity which was my brief Bangel shipping.


Exactly and it's one of my favorites as well along with 'That Vision Thing', 'Birthday' and 'Tu Shanshu in LA'.
I love 'Room With a Vu' as well.

Even though the possession has deeper meaning, I still love the semi-porn.


damn those drama mask minions for interrupting them!

Fun fact: That was Charisma's first sexual performance and as such, she was understandably nervous so although I don't know the details, David helped her feel comfortable. .

Yup. Probably.



Giles/Jenny was my favorite BtVS ship so that kinda broke me as well (btw, it still bugs me that she was buried under her alias instead of her real name, Janna Kalderash).
Though I also liked Giles/Joyce in Band Candy.

Crystal Clear

So... Gunn and Wesley's suffering in the show after her death meant nothing, then? Fantastic.

I'm soooooo glad that Fred/Angel was only ever established as a hero-worshipping crush on her side They had such a platonic bond, it wouldn't have been right and I don't think there was any groundwork to justify a romance ever happening. When they kissed that one time in Season 4 (during the Jasmine plot), it was so awkward.

Yep. Number 1 reason why I've avoided the comics like the plague I was a Xander/Buffy shipper in the old days, so Xander/Dawn being approved in any shape or form offended me to my very core.

The only reason I got on board with Jacob/Renesmee is because it explained Jacob's feelings for Bella. Apparently, his attraction to Bella was because he was destined to imprint on EB's daughter. Sick and fascinating all at once.

All excellent episodes Definitely in my top 10.

Very sweet of him, and to know that her first sexual scene was with someone who she had shared years of acting with is strangely comforting.

I could never get past that Bangel inadvertently caused the death of Giles' true love. Then again, Spuffy had been my guilty pleasure since Spike first saw Buffy dance at The Bronze, so I'd been waiting for them to happen for years before it did.

I love that Cordelia spends most of PASSION talking about the fact that she had let Angel into her car once, so it probably meant he could drive her car any time

fractured moonlight

Y'all are welcome.

Those are some of my favorite episodes too. They were so good.

Aw that was really sweet of David.

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Yeeah, it's horrific. Fred's soul having survived is actually first established in ATF, but it's easy to ignore there. Angel/Illyria doesn't happen until Angel season 11 which is after Angel and Faith.


Holy crap! I'd forgotten about that kiss, but I think I know the one. It was some distraction kiss in 'The Magic Bullet' right?
If I'm remembering that right, it was awkward for a reason, it wasn't intended to mean anything and was executed under stress but I agree it still felt wrong nonetheless.

I avoid most of the comics as well, ATF was the exception because not only did it have a beautiful albeit brief Cangel reunion Cordy/Skip 'Birthday style' but I believe she actually surpassed YW here in getting Angel back on track.

That and I believe I've heard that they were close friends even before either of them were cast on BtVS.

I'd never thought of it that way, wow.

Tbh, Jenny herself was the more direct cause. She was supposed to be monitoring Angel and nipping all possible curse breaking in the bud but she chose to look the other way for Buffy's sake.
To be fair though it was unfair of the Kalderash clan to give her that task in the first place.

I'd forgotten that part, oh dear sweet Cordy.
That's even worse than believing that Rebecca Lowell could spawn Angelus naturally.

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That's one comic series I'll be avoiding at all cost. Nothing irritates me more than retcons. I'm not clear if the comics are counted as canon, but it's still wrong.

The whole tragedy of that storyline was knowing that Fred was gone forever, so soon after Cordelia was so cruelly taken away. I expect storytellers to have more respect for the fans and characters, when it comes to continuity.

Yep, that's the one What I can't bear is that Angel, dare I say, seemed almost into it? "Do you think they bought it?" "I did" Just... No, Jeffrey Bell.

That's nice to know, but I'm still not touching them with a barge pole

I think Jenny was beginning to leave her duties to the Clan behind when she became accepted as part of the group and fell in love with Giles. That's what hurts I always hated that Buffy's blame on Jenny makes Giles turn against Jenny, too. They waste too many episodes with playing the blame game, and that only makes it worse when Angelus kills her. Giles is left with the knowledge that they could have been together longer, if only he hadn't held all this bitterness.

I'll keep my thoughts to myself about Buffy and Angel's night of passion, but I will say that Angel's attempt to back out of it spoke volumes to me.

The best thing about ETERNITY was how Angel didn't fully turn dark, but he said things to Wesley and Cordy that were hurtful and it opened a can of worms Rebecca was so annoying but I think one thing she was able to accomplish was having the group be more honest with each other from that point forward.

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There are a bunch that are not canon but there are also those which are.
I'm almost certain that the ones we're discussing; 'After the Fall', 'Angel and Faith', 'Angel season 11' and BtVS seasons 8 through 11 are canon.

Pfft! After Cordelia's memory was almost entirely ignored both before and after YW? After she was raped and left in the gutter for dead in season 4?
The best thing about Fred's death was how Angel seemed to be reliving losing Cordelia.


"...crawled inside and user her up. No way in hell, I'm letting that happen again!"

Not to devalue Fred and his affection for her but in 'Shells' when he chastises Illyria for "taking something precious from us" I felt like he was subconsciously talking about Cordelia.

What I hate most about Fred coming back is that it apparently wasn't enough that her death got aftermath due to Cordelia but now to bring her back while Cordelia remained dead...

Ugh. Well, he was probably just referring to her end?
Yeah, that felt more like reaching than rationalizing to me as well.
WTF Joss and Bell?!

I assure you that 'After the Fall ' is worth it but otherwise I'm on the same page.
Here are some glimpses:



Brian Lynch was a godsend.

I'd say you don't have to with me because I probably wouldn't argue, I hate Bangel *coughstatutoryrapecough* but this isn't the proper thread.

Ironically, I found an old Anti-Bangel thread on Google yesterday from 2009 but I searched through 11 pages of the forum and didn't find a current version.
Shame it was an awesome thread. I'd found it via this image:


He was essentially on a PCP, in other words, under the delusion that the curse had broken and he was Angelus.
It was a very smart concept.

Cordelia's line: "Angelus may not be soothing company but at least he's honest, shouldn't I expect the same of the non-evil versions of my friends?" resonates for me.

Angel's 'stake me now' face watching Cordy's performance in 'A Doll's House' was priceless and the PTBs love her, she really was bad. I hate to think this but I can't figure out how she landed that lead role without sleeping with the director.

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I'm going to open the next thread, so I'll respond to all those points above in the new one

EDIT: NEW THREAD