'Tos

Good thoughts, Kris and Louisa. One of the most touching and best, I agree completely with the both of you. More than any other episode, I think it sets Everwood apart. The twist is meaningful, rather than just a twist for a sake of one. The acting job in the kitchen and in the doctor's office is some of the best acting in the series (especially by Treat, which is nothing against Greg's work in this one). Shows like Everwood don't get to have twists or revelations very often, but this is a brilliant one.

Do I sense that you're not a Jacob fan either, Louisa? *excited*

Louisa C

Absolutely not a fan of Jacob, 'Tos! He makes my blood boil in Turf Wars & Is There a Doctor..., insulting Andy but then telling Ephram off for doing the same, the smirk he has on his face when he says Andy's just half a person (I so wanted to punch his smug face for looking so smug & superior!), making Andy feel awful when Ephram turns down his father's offer of fishing & then persuading him to go with him... I think the worst things are that he came solely with the intention of bringing Ephram back to New York & planting the idea in his grandson's brain! Also, he's not quite the great dad he's made out to be if he can't remember the name of the town he got snowed in at while on the train with his only daughter!
Nonny/Ruth was pretty decent though & I thought she actually looked like an older version of Brenda Strong.
Oh, and I think Frasier had an episode where Niles and/or Frasier found some "evidence" (a picture with a face cut out of it, IIRC) that their father (who they love but aren't particularly close to/don't get on great with, as they're v different) had an affair when they were quite young and it turns out their mother was the one having the affair. I think either one of them accuses Martin of being unfaithful & he lets them believe this for a while, as he'd rather his kids be angry with him, 'cause they already have issues, rather than hate their departed mother whom they adored... The truth comes out in the end though & the Crane men see their father in a new light.
I'm not sure when the ep aired, but I think it might have been in the mid-late 90's, so before Everwood! However, I think Everwood handled it better. Obviously the Crane men are older than Ephram, but that doesn't mean they find their father's reveal any easier to cope with/accept. I think Martin also says what Andy says to Ephram, words to the effect of 'I should never have told you' and Martin's sons reply in a similar way to Ephram.
I find it really heart-breaking that Niles & Frasier especially have gone most of their life without forming a close relationship with their father, as one would imagine them becoming closer since their mother/wife died, not more distant. I can imagine the Frasier-Martin dynamic being v similar to Andy & Ephram's in later life if Julia had died and they hadn't moved to Everwood. I also get the impression that Hester, like Julia, really understood her kids, knew what made them tick & loved them to pieces and showed it/told them often.

everwoodfan52

Louisa, I was never aware of the correlation with Fraiser. I have enjoyed Fraiser in repeats..a show that I just love.....but didn't see the episode about their mom's affair.
Is Hester Niles and Fraiser's mom? It does sound like Fraiser and Everwood had a similar plotline...but there are differences. Niles and Fraiser are so different from their "macho...sports loving....not into the Arts" dad. They're like night and day. It's understandable that they wouldn't get along with Martin. Obviously their mom was more gentle and delicate...like her sons. She must have coddled and protected them when they were young.
Ephram, on the other hand, was a lot like his dad. He was artistic like his mom..but he had the drive...and personality of his dad.

Louisa C

Yeah, Hester was Martin's wife & Niles & Frasier's mother. Martin's also a v different type of father to Andy, as his boys grew up in the 50's/60's/70's (I think Frasier & Niles are both 40-ish in Season 1, which aired in '94, which would make them born in the mid/late 50's) & parenting was different then. In spite of his differences with his boys, it's apparent Martin adores them both and he's always there to comfort them when they need it, but can also say " I told you so" when one of their hare-brained schemes goes awry.
No idea what the affair discovery episode is called or what Season it's from, and I've only ever read the transcript for it!
I love Frasier for a lot of the same reasons I love Everwood-the humour is great, with lots of sarcastic lines, hysterical characters (Bibi, Frasier's manager is brilliant!), perfect amounts of slapstick/visual comic moments & some truly poignant fraternal/father-son scenes too. I've seen Ham Radio a handful of times & it never fails to have me in hysterics!
Ephram is indeed a lot more like Andy than Frasier is to Martin, but both Frasier & Niles have elements of Martin's personality in them, with their dedication to & love for their careers and their strong sense of duty/right & wrong.

Thief Of Love

How bizarre, Louisa -- I don't recall which episode was on the other night (not the affair reveal one, just one in which Hester was briefly referenced), but I was just thinking then, even though I've been watching Frasier for years, that it was funny that Frasier had done a similar story to Everwood regarding son(s) suspecting the father of infidelity when it was actually the now-deceased mother who had been at fault. Though that one had the added later twist of all three Crane men bonding over being cheated on by their spouses, heh. One would hope Andy and Ephram wouldn't come to share that!

Everwood did do it better, though of course it was also better-suited for the big reveal, with the difference in the Andy/Ephram dynamic, and Ephram's age and the more tragic circumstances of Julia's death.

'Tos

Just a question that came to me (although, don't let this interrupt the comparison with the Frasier storyline, as I'm finding that really interesting): do you think Delia ever finds out about what Julia did? She's too young in the show, obviously, but at some point? If so, does Andy tell her, or does Ephram? She's always been about exploring her mother and connecting with that memory, and it seems fair that she would have to face the realities that her mother was not perfect just like Ephram did. It seems that she idealizes Julia too, which..well, of course she does. But finding out would be a REALLY interesting story, I think.

Thief Of Love

Ooh, nice one -- there was such an undercurrent later in the series of Andy and Ephram worrying a bit about Delia learning of the Madison baby thing that I never even gave much thought to this reveal.

I don't think for a second that Andy or Ephram would ever intentionally tell Delia about Julia's infidelity; she was too young to have really been aware of the tension in the household at that time (well, she'd know there was fighting, but she wouldn't pick up on the things that Ephram did), and she'd gain absolutely nothing by learning this information about her mother or her parents' marriage. Now, a scenario in which she learns the news accidentally could have interesting repercussions, but I'm not sure how she'd come upon it unintentionally, unless Andy or Ephram really slipped, or she went out drinking with Harold. Which would be problematic for reasons entirely unrelated to Julia and her infidelity.

Louisa C

I can't imagine Andy or Ephram intentionally telling Delia about Julia's infidelity. Andy only told Ephram because Ephram forced him to explain himself and Andy states he should never have told him... I do wonder if Delia was ever told why Andy uprooted her & Ephram to Everwood. I realise the move was more about Andy becoming a proper dad to/building a relationship with Ephram than Delia, who he already had a decent rapport with, but I still think she deserved to know. Maybe Andy told her when they spent the Summer between Season 3 & 4 in Mexico?

everwoodfan52

I don't think that Delia will ever find out about Julia's infidelity. No one would tell her and how would she accidently find out? I can't think of a way that this would happen.
I do believe, however, that the Madison/baby situation will be revealed to Delia one day. Ephram pretty much promised Delia that he would tell her (when HE was ready.) I think that he'll keep his promise to his sister.

Taryn74

The only way, and I do mean the only way, I could see Delia realistically finding out about Julia's affair was if she someday overheard a heated argument between Andy and Smiley (Jacob) in which Smiley essentially did the same thing as Ephram - accused Andy of cheating on Julia, and Andy, in his anger (he would have to be really mad, IMO, to let this slip to Jacob, so it would have to be one heckuva fight) revealed that Julia had cheated on him. I don't even think Smiley would believe him, and would probably leave at that point, and Delia would go to her room and cry and never let on that she had heard it. Poor Delia.

Or, and this is even sadder to me, if someday Delia was married to a man that she dearly loved, and found out he had a brief fling while they were married. She would go to Andy or Ephram (either one would work) for comfort and advice, and they would gently let her know that Andy had gone through the same thing and was able to work it out, that it's something she has to do some soul-searching about but it doesn't necessarily have to be the end of her marriage.

In any case, I hope she never finds out because I don't like either scenario. So there.

'Tos

Great thoughts everyone. I agree that Ephram and Andy are not likely to tell her--nor should they. And seriously depressing scenarios, Taryn. Thanks so much for bumming us all out! Hee.

I just kind of feel badly for Delia sometimes, hee, because she doesn't get to know any of the secrets. This one she shouldn't, but as has been brought up, she never did get to find out why Ephram left (I actually think the writers forgot about that, because he should have been ready in S4) or even why they moved to Everwood. That last one seems really unfair to me. There's no reason not to tell her now, especially when the reason has everything to do with Julia. I'm not sure if there's much of a story to tell of Delia finding that out, but she should at least know. That one is the most unfair to me.

Thief Of Love

Yeah, that last one I don't understand at all. She could have been told that when Ephram was -- there's nothing there that was beyond her comprehension level, and it's honestly a nice story. And it would even link Julia and Everwood for her, so she'd feel a bit more of that connection that she misses.

'Tos

Exactly. It just seems like a missed opportunity for no reason. I'm not sure if we're supposed to assume that she does know, but the fact that Rina goes "Ooh, right" in the commentary track when someone says something about only one person knowing makes me think that we're not supposed to assume that. Still, other than that, it would be a rightful assumption. She wouldn't know in the car scene since that is all about Ephram and Andy and their journey throughout the season, but after would, yes, would have worked perfectly. Maybe I'll just assume that Andy was going to tell her, but forgot all about it with the aftermath of Colin's death.

I just want her to know something about Andy or Julia that Ephram doesn't. He gets the three secrets mentioned, plus the discovery of Andy. Julia gets the Shabbat story. Ooh, heh.

Can we make sure that she gets to learn something that Ephram doesn't know in S5?

everwoodfan52

What could be another secret that Delia will learn S5 that Ephram doesn't even know? Any thoughts?

Thief Of Love

Something to tackle in the Virtual Season 5 thread!

No ideas at the moment, incidentally.