Jerry D

I loved that clip.

Here is a topic I posted years ago about Pacey and Andie. Parts of it were from my topic on Andie, posted above, but I expanded on everything in this topic and I talked about them as a couple. Obviously, some of this is dated now, but I used to really try to put a lot of thought into the topics I posted on the Dawson’s Creek board when I moderated it. I hope you all like it.

Hi everyone! A lot of us, on a daily basis, devote countless posts and post topics debating the merits of the romantic relationship of Dawson and Joey versus the romantic relationship of Pacey and Joey. What a lot of people, except for some wonderfully devoted Pacey and Andie fans, seem to forget, or choose to ignore, is just how wonderful a romantic relationship that Pacey Witter and Andie McPhee had. Season Two of Dawson’s Creek was a major disappointment to me in many ways, namely because The Powers That Be effectively ruined the wonderful relationship of Dawson and Joey, whose romantic relationship ended, twice, before it really had a chance to begin, and whose friendship was left in tatters. The one positive development that I saw in Season Two, however, was the wonderful romantic relationship of Pacey and Andie, who I truly feel, to this day, were the best romantic couple ever depicted on Dawson’s Creek, and who had the most mutually loving and supportive relationship I’ve ever seen on that show. Andie opened up Pacey to a whole new world, a world of love with someone his own age, (what a concept, huh? ) and she bolstered his confidence in such a way that he was able, for the first and only time in his life, to put his “slacker” image behind him, and obtain success, both scholastically, and, more important, as a human being. Andie didn’t force Pacey to improve his grades or to become someone that he wasn’t, rather, she inspired Pacey to accomplish more than he himself believed he could accomplish, and she was the first person in Pacey’s life that really believed in him. Pacey managed to turn his life around, confident in the love of Andie, and I, for one, found that to be a wonderful development. Pacey, in turn, became Andie’s hero, sticking by her as her mental condition deteriorated, and acting in a truly noble and mature manner. We had always seen evidence of Pacey’s kindness and intelligence that lay hidden behind his outwardly affable and apathetic exterior, but it was Andie who helped Pacey, and all of us, realize what a truly wonderful human being that he was. Pacey also found the courage to stand up to his father when his father insulted Andie, and Andie’s subsequent phone conversation with Mr. Witter allowed him and Pacey to achieve a true breakthrough in their relationship, and allowed them to interact as a father and son truly should for the first time in their lives. There was a sweetness to the relationship of Pacey and Andie that I found to be exhilarating, and it served as a nice counterpoint to the ever volatile and unstable relationship of Dawson and Joey. I actually had tears in my eyes in “His Leading Lady” when Pacey said to her: “I know, Andie, I know and I can help. I know I can. And I'm not going to turn away from you, Andie. After all, you've done for me. And certainly not when you need me the most. We can do this together and I know that I can help you,” and a tearful Andie said to Pacey “How do you know you can help me?” and Pacey answered “Because, Andie, I love you.” That was one of the most moving scenes I have ever witnessed on a television show, and I truly thought that Pacey and Andie were one of the sweetest, and most loving couples I have ever seen. I was especially moved when I watched Pacey help Andie when her mother had a breakdown at the supermarket in “The Reluctant Hero,” as he said precisely the right thing to calm Mrs. McPhee down and diffuse a volatile and embarrassing situation for Andie and her family. Now, that, my friends, was the Pacey Witter that I loved, and he was never more noble than he was at that moment, and in that season, because he was with someone who he truly loved, and who truly loved him, and Pacey and Andie’s wonderful relationship brought out the best in this incredible character.

I was also truly touched by their farewell scene in “Ch Ch Changes,” when they said:

Pacey: I don't want to say goodbye. I just want to look at you...I wish I had some eloquent parting words for you but...all I could think of was this. Thank you. Thank you for everything you've given to me. Thank you for forcing me to be the man you made me. Just thank you. I am so grateful to you, Andie.

Andie: Oh, I don't want to let you go, Pacey.

Pacey: Just remember your promise, okay? You and me together again, happy, healthy, and more in love than ever.

Andie: I'll remember.


Unfortunately though, the “wonderful” writers didn’t remember, and they threw away this beautiful relationship for the sake of creating “drama,” just like they threw away Dawson and Joey’s beautiful relationship for the same reason.

I was disappointed beyond words that the writers chose to have Andie cheat on Pacey while she was being treated at a psychiatric facility during the summer after their Sophomore year together. Andie’s disclosure to Pacey that she had cheated on him tore their relationship apart, and it had devastating consequences on both Pacey and Andie, and in many ways, neither character ever recovered from this revelation. Granted, Andie was wrong to cheat on Pacey, but she was honest enough to tell him what had transpired that summer, and I honestly felt that she wasn’t in her right mind when she had cheated on him, but rather, she was mentally ill, and far away from her family, friends, and Pacey, in a psychiatric facility, and she most obviously felt lonely and vulnerable, and she reached out, once, to a young man in a similar position, and she was genuinely remorseful for what she had done, as she tearfully pleaded with Pacey to forgive her, but he just couldn’t find it in his heart to do so.

Once Pacey rejected Andie, she became a lying, cheating, and calculating caricature of a character, and she also exhibited a propensity for cruelty and deception that made her character vilified and virtually unwatchable. Andie’s original ambitions for scholastic success as a way to cope with the tragedy in her life were twisted into a obsession, and she was shown using any means possible, legal or otherwise, to achieve her goals of perfection, even at the cost of her friendships and her relationships with the other students at Capeside High. A lot of discussions have been generated about how the character of Dawson Leery was purposely destroyed in Season Three to make Pacey Witter’s character look like the obvious choice for Joey Potter’s character to make, but if anyone’s character was destroyed in Season Three, it was Andie McPhee’s character, and I consider that to be a shame, because I think the hatred that was generated towards her character for her actions in the first part of Season Three has a lot to do with the fact that she’s no longer on the show. I also despise the writers for breaking up what I consider to be the most wonderful romantic relationship ever depicted on Dawson’s Creek, because like Dawson and Joey, Pacey and Andie touched my heart.

Once Pacey learned that Andie had cheated on him, he was crushed by this devastating blow to his heart, and all the confidence he had gained during the time he had spent with her crumbled away, as he reverted back to his slacker ways, and he came close to failing all his courses, and he nearly got expelled for starting a fight on Joey’s behalf. The only really positive accomplishment that he made during the entire school year was his role in the play that Andie directed, and I was touched when Andie told him afterwards that she shouldn’t have ever have tried to change him, because he was “perfect.” When Pacey performed in that play, however, Joey was off on her date with AJ, after Pacey had practically begged her to come and see him in the play, leaving him hurt and disappointed when she didn’t show up. I thought this was a very thoughtless move on Joey’s part, because Pacey made it very clear to her that her attendance at his play would mean a lot to him, but she went ahead on her date with “college boy” anyway. Joey, to be sure, has, to a degree, been a loving and supportive girlfriend to Pacey, but she certainly didn’t inspire him to excel scholastically like Andie did, so I simply have to conclude that Andie was much better for Pacey than Joey, a feeling that has remained unchanged for me this season, and in my humble opinion, Pacey and Joey’s relationship couldn’t hold a candle to Pacey and Andie’s wonderful relationship. I personally don’t think that Joey Potter will ever be as good for Pacey Witter as Andie McPhee was, because to me, Andie’s love for Pacey was so much more genuine than Joey’s love for him has been. Andie was Pacey’s inspiration, his love, and his best friend, and she helped him to become the man she knew he could be, a fact that Pacey himself seemed to have forgotten in his reaction to Andie’s cheating on him, and it’s also a fact that many fans seem to have forgotten as well.

I can remember so many times when Andie simply refused to let Pacey feel sorry for himself, and in so doing, she inspired him to become a better person. Just look at this conversation from “The Reluctant Hero”:

Pacey: You finally figured it out. I'm not Luke Skywalker, I'm not even Luke Perry. There's no hero here, Andie. I am a joke.

Andie: I'm not coming to your pity party. You know I don't think you're a joke, Pacey.

Pacey: But it's too late. I've spent too long being a screw-up, I'm kind of passed the proverbial point of no return.

Andie: Well, change your course. Break the chain. Anyone can re-invent themselves. I mean, it's America. Madonna does it every week.

Pacey: But I don't know how. I don't know where to start.

Andie: Try starting from the inside. I mean, anyone can change their fate. Heroes are made, not born.

To me, Joey has never inspired Pacey like that, and she never will. I also feel that the sexual aspect of Pacey and Andie’s relationship was handled in a much more tasteful way than the sexual aspect of Pacey and Joey’s relationship was handled, and all you have to do is compare Pacey and Joey’s crass conversation following the first time they made love in “Four Stories” to the beautiful conversation that Pacey and Andie had after the first time they made love in “Sex She Wrote,” and I think you’ll see my point.

I loved Pacey and Andie, and I loved the person that Pacey became because he was in a loving relationship with Andie.

jediwands

Never did he do that with Joey! You are so right!

Jerry, outstanding post.

I love how you stated that Andie inspired Pacey and through Andie's wonderful motivation, we were able to see the real Pacey who was filled with potential and amazing traits. Andie, through her love and amazing way with Pacey, brought all of this out. You hit on a key point when you said Andie never allowed Pacey to feel sorry for himself. She refused and not only refused but she gave him tips on how to change. Not in a forceful way, but a loving, gentle way. It was so beautiful. Her words just melted Pacey's heart. He never had someone in his life like Andie before. He knew this.

Then when Joey got her hooks into Pacey, it all went to hell.

Andie inspired Pacey in every way. Joey Potter, did not.

Jerry D

That's why I never understood why both Dawson and Pacey thought Joey was so wonderful, because she wasn't. She was a horrible girlfriend to both of them, and she was selfish, self-absorbed, and whiny.

jediwands

She really was! LOL She had more compassion while singing to her mugger than she did with both Pacey and Dawson, combined.

jediwands

Thing is, at least Dawson somewhat had an excuse to be so into her... they were childhood best friends and he was wrapped up into his fantasy Spielberg land, which of course, Joey was also connected to as they watched movies together and Joey knew how talented Dawson was. So Joey gave back some to Dawson and there was a good give and take back when they were truly friends. However, with Pacey and Joey, what did Joey do for Pacey? From the moment they got started in season 3, Pacey was on an assignment to look out for Joey. It was all about Joey's wants and desires. He saw her with that EJ relationship and was there for her to pick up all the pieces. They got together romantically with Pacey being the one who made her so called feel free and alive. Again, what did Joey did for Pacey besides look like nice eye candy? Pacey experienced a REAL relationship with Andie before this. Couldn't Pacey see the difference here? With Andie, it was balanced and Andie made him feel like he was on top of the world. With Joey, it was all about Joey, totally one sided. When they finally did get together romantically, he was reminded constantly of Joey not being over Dawson. They had a little give and take in season 6 but then she chose Eddie to break his heart. She did nothing for Pacey on any level besides look good. Seriously, it is not a coincidence it was ANDIE Pacey couldn't wait to share his news about graduating high school with first. He even went to Andie to share this because he knew she was the one person in his life that wanted the best for him in every way. That was love. Joey did nothing for Pacey. Heartbreak, frustration, and a one sided relationship, oh she was the master at that.

TL22

It seemed to me when Joey had to make a decision she did not turn to her boyfriend Pacey, but to Dawson for advice. Which I am sure contributed to Pacey's blowup at Promicide.

Also what is with her reaction when she saw Dawson kissing Gretchen? She dumped Dawson, what did she expect him to do? sit around and pine for her. On second thought maybe she did think that.

This brings me to some thoughts on the final. The sheer arrogance of Joey telling Pacey she chooses him, assuming he has been pining for her for the past seven years.

The scene I would have liked to see would be Pacey telling her she is several years to late and he had moved on. And the lat scene of the show would have been Joey looking out a window watching Pacey and Andie drive away.

Jerry D

I would have loved that ending.

Instead of having Jen die in the finale, I would have liked Dawson to have realized that it was her, and not Joey, that he loved all along, and end up with her.

Jen was a much more considerate girlfriend to Dawson than Joey ever was, and she was a much nicer person than Joey, but everything always had to go back to Joey, and Dawson and Pacey were never allowed to get over her.

jediwands

lol Exactly. Joey was fuming with jealousy and Pacey knew it, too. I have no idea how PJ fans can explain that scene away. If I supported a couple and saw one of the two in the pairing react with intense romantic jealousy like that, I would be sad. It was so obvious that Joey was jealous. Yes, she literally wanted Dawson to pine away and be alone while she tried things out with Pacey. That is basically what her behavior conveyed.

So ridiculous. I also hated how they showed Pacey all lost and confused, making it seem like he was screwing up because he wasn't over Joey. Please pass me a barf bag. The only girl that should have been causing Pacey to pine and be upset over is named Andie. That is how you can tell Kevin switched this ending at the last minute. That made sense for the Pacey and Andie pairing, not Pacey and Joey.

^ That would have been the best! Pacey and Andie driving away, and Dawson showing up with his hot girlfriend, Jen or some actress. Camera shows Joey and her Creek as she drowns in it, haha.

Jerry D

That’s a very true point about why Dawson would love Joey so much versus Pacey loving her Michelle. Joey was Dawson’s best friend and confidante, and they were inseparable since childhood, and Dawson had been there for her when her mother died and her father went to prison. I hesitate to call them soulmates because the Dawson’s Creek writers ruined that term for me with how they treated them from Season Two on, but the show told us again and again that they were soulmates, even if they stopped showing us they were soulmates after Season One, and so yes, they were soulmates, and for better or for worse, Joey was the love of Dawson’s life. I loved them initially because I really bought into the concept of two inseparable best friends falling in love, and I loved watching Dawson realize his feelings for Joey in Season One. I used to write these long poetic posts about how special Dawson and Joey were, and for a long time, they were special to me, but the writers ruined everything I loved about them. But to go back to what you said, yes, Dawson loving Joey made a lot more sense than Pacey loving Joey.

The thing is, though, Paul Stupin and his writers didn’t care about what made sense. I think that Pacey and Joey were brought together to capitalize on the chemistry that Josh Jackson and Katie Holmes had, and also to capitalize on the popularity of Katie Holmes and Josh Jackson. Katie Holmes was one of the first celebrities that was made famous by the Internet, and there were websites that were devoted to her (in fact, the very first message board that I ever posted on was on a Katie Holmes message board) and she was definitely the IT girl of the show, just like her character of Joey, and even Josh Jackson said once that whoever is with Joey gets the most screen time. I also think that Josh Jackson had a natural charm and charisma that James Van Der Beek simply didn’t have, especially in the later seasons of the show where James’ contempt for the show and his character showed in his performances, while I feel that Josh Jackson always gave the audience a good performance, to the point where even I melted in that Season Six scene where Pacey told Joey he had never gotten over her. In addition, I do feel that Josh Jackson was more popular than James Van Der Beek was, and he knew how to charm the audience, and I’m sure he knew how to charm the writers and producers as well, so he was given more screen time, especially since James wanted less screen time.

I’ll always be convinced that Pacey’s character was purposely built up while Dawson’s character was purposely destroyed to facilitate a Pacey and Joey paring. I remember that the writers launched these commercials about Pacey called “The Heart of a Hero” at the end of Season Three to present Pacey as the new lead character, and Dawson was shown to be petty and immature, issuing ultimatums to Joey and trying to run Pacey aground in a boat race.

I could never warm up to Pacey and Joey because I always thought their relationship was shallow (I used to call it the Pacey and Joey lustfest ) and it was based on deception and betrayal, so I could never warm up to them. I agree Michelle that I never saw what Pacey saw in Joey, except that she was pretty, but Andie was also very pretty, and his relationship with Andie had so much more depth than his relationship with Joey.

I agree with you Michelle that with Joey, it was all about Joey, all the time. I liked her scenes with Pacey in Season Six, but like you said, she broke his heart and went back to that jerk Eddie after leading him on, just like she broke Dawson’s heart, but both him and Dawson were still obsessed with her five years later. I’ll never understand what was so special about Joey, except that the writers and producers were obsessed with Katie Holmes.

I thought that Sars from Television Without Pity summed up Joey and Pacey and Dawson’s obsession with her perfectly in her recap of the series finale of Dawson’s Creek:

jediwands

Yes, there was this strong bond of friendship/emotional connection between Dawson/Joey from the start. It was there. Joey slept over at his house, they talked about everything together. There was something solid between them. Compare to Pacey/Joey who technically couldn't really stand each other in the beginning and it wasn't some sexual attraction love/hate either. Pacey didn't mind Joey but Joey was annoyed by Pacey. They did not have a solid foundation as friends like Dawson/Joey had. When Pacey/Joey became friends in season 3, it was still one sided mostly. That is not to say Joey disliked Pacey or anything like that. But even as they became friends, it was still Pacey looking out for Joey, Joey's life being the number one thing. Also, shortly thereafter, Pacey starts falling for her. It was a mostly one-sided friendship with Pacey starting to fall for her romantically.

So yes, it makes sense why Dawson felt the strong need to keep Joey in his life given all that they shared together for years and years.

Jerry, I have so many Dawson/Joey write ups from years ago. Get this, I loved them so much I would even grab a pen and paper and WRITE about them. I would write endless things about them and the special "soulmate" connection they had together. When the series finale took place, I threw everything away. I was so upset over the entire series as a whole (and how far away they went from season 1) and it ticked me off so much, I chucked all of my write ups.

It really was all about the popularity of Katie and Josh that caused Pacey/Joey to ever become a story. You are so right on. Josh did have something both off and on the screen that James didn't have. I also don't know if these rumors are true or not, but so many claimed Katie dated both James and Josh and there was some sort of competition going on there. She only briefly dated James and then seriously dated Josh for a while. I don't know if the PJers attempted to fantasize about this, but their claim was the series finale became a James versus Josh thing and Josh was happy he "got the girl" after finding out Pacey wasn't ending up with Andie. The claim was James and Josh really disliked each other as the series moved along.

But I will say that I do hold James responsible for what happened in season 6. I remember the "in the know" posters who either worked on the set or had other means, all saying James was why Dawson/Joey were not getting their shot in season 6. He was not interested in a lot of screen time. That was, then, passed off to Josh and Katie and Pacey/Joey. The reason why I feel this is true is because BOTH Dawson/Joey and Pacey/Joey fans "in the know" were saying this. Even Pacey/Joey fans were saying it was meant to be a Dawson/Joey season romantically but changed due to James. If true, that is really, really too bad. I honestly believe Dawson/Joey could have been totally transformed back to season 1 days had this taken place and we actually watched them in a mature romantic relationship for a great portion of season 6.

Stupin and Company were going with the 'sexy' couple, and claiming 'their new show' because Kevin gave them the car keys to drive the vehicle. It was a dirty combination.

Exactly! Look at how they got together in the first place... what they did to both Dawson and Andie was pathetic and cruel. It was so manipulative. Essentially, Pacey/Andie had to be destroyed, Andie as a character had to go all out of character with the cheating and attempted rape claim, Dawson had to be all into Eve and act totally out of character, and then Pacey/Joey had to cheat their way to a romance and rip out Dawson's heart (Andie's too) as well.

Horrible. Yes, I can't think of one reason why Pacey loved Joey. I would love a reason besides her looks as to why he wanted her to badly. Joey was horrible, Andie was everything. Andie had layers and layers of substance.

They were so obsessed with Katie Holmes. I have never seen anything like it. The closest I can come is the Harry Potter movie series and the Emma Watson love. Some scenes were changed to fit her character but at least the films did not go away from the books. The stories were still there. They just had Hermione turn into "Super Hermione" in a particular film which was completely off. She even stole scenes from other characters. It was frustrating but at least as a rule, the content was held together and of course, I don't even care about the films since the books are IT.

But yes, when I saw the producers of the Harry Potter films go nuts over Emma, I was instantly reminded of Katie Holmes and Dawson's Creek. I am also very sure that Katie knew she had them wrapped around her little finger. It is no secret that she wanted Pacey/Joey in the end and for all we know, she could have put that wish inside Kevin's ears, certainly Stupin's. Who knows about that but yes, they were obsessed with Katie. So much so, Michelle Williams had to be pushed inside of a closest. I wouldn't be surprised if they even told Michelle to act a certain way in scenes (in other words, suppress the talent!) in order to keep the center stage for Katie/Joey.

It is dead on.

jediwands

Wow, they didn't go there, did they? Well, I guess they did and twice now. Wow.

http://www.fanforum.com/f10/anti-pa-...-one-63098314/

I'm not sure how this thread was created... well, yes I do, Pacey/Joey fans. LOL

Unreal.

everwoodfan52

From TL22......



As promised some links to my Pacey/Andie Dawson Creek stories......Some of the earlier ones, let's say, could have been written a lot better

1.Kiss Me Chapter 1, a dawson's creek fanfic | FanFiction

This takes place at the end of season four. It's my very first P/A story. two short chapters. My version on how the graduation could/should have went.

2.Thanksgiving, a dawson's creek fanfic | FanFiction

A short interlude of what could have happened between seasons three and four.

3.Finding True Love Chapter 1, a dawson's creek fanfic | FanFiction

Fourteen chapters of what could have happened in the future. I wrote it over two years. The story starts season three when Pacey is getting ready to sail away. The end of chapter one has a unique twist, I think you'll enjoy.

The following is by ElizabethBella who wrote a fantastic Pacey/Andie story. (My favourite)

Come Sail Away Chapter 1: Separate, and apart, a dawson's creek fanfic | FanFiction
This is a multi chaptered story, you won't be able to put down.

The next is another one of my favourites written by the very talented StevieLuvsAlex

No amount of time, a dawson's creek fanfic | FanFiction

The next is a two part Pacey/Andie story written by me and StevieLuvsAlex. The first part is hers and the second part written by me won't make any sense if the first part is not read. Very very short

Everything happens for a reason, a dawson's creek fanfic | FanFiction
Written by StevieluvsAlex

Everything Happens For a Reason part Two, a dawson's creek fanfic | FanFiction
Written by me and takes up where Everything Happens For a Reason leaves off

Enjoy the stories and all authors including me love comments on the site.

TL22

Thank you very much for posting the links. I hope everyone enjoys the stories.

There is one more story that is a bit different

https://www.fanfiction.net/story/sto...toryid=7420836

This is a glimpse of Pacey, Andie, Joey and Dawson when they were very young. The story is two parts..

The next link is by the author Makesmyheadspin. IT is a bitter sweet story and really captures Pacey and Andie.

Springsteen, a dawson's creek fanfic | FanFiction

jediwands

Check out the opening. I put everything there. If you want to make sure everything was added correctly or you want to add something else, let me know and thanks for the links!

everwoodfan52

It looks great, Michelle, and thanks again TL22.