Mignonette

Yes and in the novel, "The Family", Rodrigo made sure they stayed bonded by having Cesar take her virginity. It is fiction , but there are historically accurate elements throughout. Mario Puzo did a ton of research for that book, so he knew the actual history.

My theory after researching the Borgias when I lived in Rome, is Rodrigo capitalized on Ces & Lu's bond to strengthen the family against their enemies. He'd began arranging a marital alliance for her when she was 10 years old. He feared her loyalty would switch to her husband's family and if the alliance went bad, his family would be divided and power would slip away. If there was incest, I believe Rodrigo helped cover it up.

PhoenixRising

I'm so glad you lived in Rome and were able to get all this information, Lila!

So in real life, the incest might've also had a political reason as well as a romantic one?

Mignonette

Most definitely, Alex! Rodrigo and Cesar were both power seekers and Lucrezia adored them both, especially Ces, so did everything she could to help them. She never once did anything to hurt them or their plans for power.

I have 4 stars now - extreme fan! It's true that I am an extreme fan of Ces & Lu!

PhoenixRising

I know, Lila. But Lucrezia never thought that Cesare was manipulating her the way her father was. She was always an equal to Cesare.

Congratulations on getting four stars! I remember when I got my four stars. I was just happy to finally make 2,000 posts.

Mignonette

Thanks, Alex!

You're right, Lu never expressed any feelings of being manipulated by Ces and I don't think he ever manipulated her. They spent lots of time alone and formulated plans together. Many things were arranged and carried out by him, because he was a man and it was how things were done back then, but she collaborated with him and there's no evidence she was an unwilling victim of anything. She was always loyal to Ces, even when he killed the husband she was fond of. She may have loved Alf, but she loved Ces way more and her loyalty was always to him as his was to her.

PhoenixRising

You're welcome, Lila!

I wonder if there was any evidence that they were like this in real life? She seemed to be more intent on doing what her father wanted her to do, marrying all those guys. I would've liked to have seen more of Ces and Lucrezia being a power couple if we got a fourth season. I hated all the time they spent apart from each other on the show.

Mignonette

There's actually quite a bit of evidence that Lu worked in concert with Ces and shared in his plans. They're letters between them, for example. She was much closer to Ces than anyone else, including Rodrigo. Rodrigo made the plan for her marriage to Sforza and Alfonso of Aragon, but Ces was the mastermind behind her marriage to Alfonso of Ferrara and she partnered with him to make it happen.

Yeah, I hated all the time they spent apart after s3e4. Weren't the last couple of episodes rewritten after the show got notice mid-season of cancellation? Maybe that's why it seemed so disjointed.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Lila!

There is? Wow, I was hoping that there was some evidence of something going on between them. And do you think Ces arranged her marriage to Alfonso of Ferrara because he knew she wouldn't care about that guy?

I have no idea about that. I think the entire season was completed filming before the season aired, and Showtime decided to cancel the series.

Mignonette

I think Ces was very secure that Lu loved him and that he was irreplaceable in her heart. He was extremely jealous of Alfonso of Aragon, because she loved him on some level. But it couldn't have been anywhere near what she felt for Ces, because she knew he'd ordered Micheletto to kill Alf, and yet, she spent the afternoon and evening alone with Ces at her house only 2 days after Alf's burial. And he continued visiting her in Nepi when she left Rome a few months after Alf's death. Nothing changed in their intensely close relationship, so how much could she have felt for Alf? Alf was the only man besides Ces that there's any evidence of Lu's love. Alf was young, only 17 when she married him - a year younger than her. He was handsome and loved her. Her other husbands were older and unattractive. I wonder how Ces felt when he found out Rodrigo had chosen a cute young guy for Lu? Probably he understood strategically, but I'll bet he started planning his murder from the moment she said, "I do" and I'm not even joking here.

So many of the things in the show were pulled from the true history that for NJ to say he didn't believe the incest happened is just disingenuous on his part.

PhoenixRising

I agree, Lila. I think that NJ was just trying to stick to the narrative that he wanted to tell, which was The Borgias as The Godfather.

Yes, I do think that Ces knew that Lu loved him, but I think he also felt a bit hesitant at first because he wasn't sure how far to take it or how far she'd be willing to go. He still wanted to hold on to that image of innocence he had of her, you know? Yeah, I do know that historically, Alfonso is the only man that Lucrezia apparently loved, or that there was evidence of this. She was reportedly heartbroken by his death, but she was also heartbroken by news of Cesare's death. Oh, I forgot that Alf was a year younger than she was.

Mignonette

Isn't it interesting that Mario Puzo wrote The Godfather and The Family, and NJ based his storytelling of The Borgias on The Godfather?

I feel like MP believed the incest happened, cause the incestous relationship between Ces & Lu was the centerpiece of his book. And he romanticized and idealized it, never making it seem sordid or immoral. Based on everything I've read about them, they did idealize each other and there was definitely an intimacy that felt romantic and sexually charged.

That's why I believe they were lovers at least at some point: it was the energy - the vibe of their interactions and others' observations of them. Ces could've destroyed evidence of them having sex, but he couldn't destroy the highly charged energy between them, and that's what likely kept people whispering.

BL.Arinna_1982

PhoenixRising

Well, I think Puzo had a fascination with the Borgia family, Lila. And yeah, it does seem like he's in the camp that believes that incest between Cesare and Lucrezia actually did happen. But he wasn't the first to come up with that type of storyline. Like I said, incest fiction has existed in Flowers In The Attic and The Mists of Avalon.

Oh, I can certainly see the energy you're talking about. If Puzo took inspiration from history, then it's no wonder.

Mignonette

I've never seen The Mists of Avalon, but want to watch it.

I agree MP was fascinated with the Borgia family. Some of the most beautiful quotes ever about Cesar and Lucrezia came from his book, so it's pretty obvious to me that he did believe they were in love and were lovers IRL. One of my favorite quotes was when Cesar told her that she was the only real thing in his life

That quote's so interesting, because several of Cesar's biographers have written that he showed an inability to love anyone deeply - except Lucrezia.

In his correspondence to Charlotte and other women, he never mentioned love or showed tenderness. He sent gifts, but his letters were impersonal. Lucrezia is the only one he wrote sentimental letters to and signed, "your brother, who loves you as he loves himself". And we know how much he loved himself He was a very vain and egoistic man. Signing his letters that way, I can only imagine the tendresse he showed her in person.