[Cloudburst2000]

Originally Posted by Luinélwen In the book they just said Winky wouldn't have know how to conjure the dark mark..and she would have needed a wand..not that she wasn't magic, justthat she needed the wand to do it.

Which shows how naive wizards can be towards house elves. House elves have loads of magic as we've seen by the wandless magic they possess. So why couldn't Winky have conjured the Dark Mark without a wand. Wizards seem to forget that other magical species might not be bound by the same rules that they are. I think most wizards take house elves for granted, and I really think that attitude is going to end up biting them in the butt.

[*ADARA*]

Winky could've conjured the dark mark with or without a wand if she knew how. I am pretty sure that only Death Eaters know how but she might've learned. She only would've done it, if she knew how, if she was instructed by her master or her master's son.

Or maybe house elves put themselves into servitude. Put a 'curse' or whatever on themselves. Maybe they were becoming corrupted by their large levels of magic, and they wanted someone(an outside force) to control it for them, but the wizards took advantage of the elves and made them into slaves?

Very interesting look at it... I concur with the idea that they were born with their magic. They seem to have the potential to be very powerful. A house elf army could take over the world. Maybe if house elves used wands they would realize just how powerful they are and then get power hungry and destroy themselves trying to climb to the top- oh wait, people do that already.

[Kimberly]

Originally Posted by *ADARA* Think of the fountain that was destroyed in front of the MoM at the end of OotP. The Centaur, and goblin, et al. were gazing up at the cheesy wizard at if he were god. Wizards are nothing if not egotistical in their view of supremecy. They're too good to associate with muggles and much better than any centaur or other intelligent creature. But really, what can you expect from people who skin and boil mandrakes that grow from screaming babies into eachothers pots to make new screaming babies when their faces clear. Mandrakes are like people plants and wizards chop them up. They could probably run their own society off in the mountains somewhere. I once had a thread on the HP board about the injustices perpetrated against the Mandrakes. The treatment of mandrakes clearly inhumane, at least what is detailed in the books. I'm not going to get off on a tangent here so this will be the end of me bringing that up unless somebody would like to discuss it.

I was struck by the irony and the egotistical nature of the Fountain at the ministry in OotP. They even have departments for magical creatures and put their laws on them. When a lot of times the creatures are smart if not smarter then humans. Most of them already have societies.

I wonder if these creatures agreed to the arrangement to keep their kind from being discovered. Or if they were forced into it. I guess it would make sense if they allowed the Wizards to control things if they could keep muggles from seeing them.

Where do you guys think the hatred of muggles comes from? The witch burning trails in the past? Or just a sense of superiority. Because really a lot of the muggle technology is better then magic IMO. I would hate to have to use a quill when there are computers. How do wizards ever find the books they are looking for without computers. Also planes seem much more comfy then floo powder or brooms

What things do you think muggles do better?

[milestogo]

I never saw this thread before, there's a really interesting discussion going on.

I think that guys like Malfoy hate them because they feel superior, plus they want pure blood for the magic world; they probably think that they're better than muggles because they're wizzards. It's an old thing, some people don't wanna mix.

Btw, Kim, I saw that you were our new mod, congratulation!

[Cloudburst2000]

Originally Posted by jessica20121984 I never saw this thread before, there's a really interesting discussion going on. I think that guys like Malfoy hate them because they feel superior, plus they want pure blood for the magic world; they probably think that they're better than muggles because they're wizzards. It's an old thing, some people don't wanna mix. Btw, Kim, I saw that you were our new mod, congratulation!

Well, do you think that too much wizarding pure blood could be a bad thing? There are aonly a few pure-blooded wizarding families left so there must be lots of in-breeding -- cousins marrying cousins, etc. I would think that would be a bad thing. Wouldn't it weaken their magic over time? That's why in-breeding isn't allowed. It can cause health problems in the future and such especially in-breeding over a long period of time It is really rather telling that the most powerful wizards we've seen from the younger students are not pure-blooded. Harry's mom was a muggle-born and Hermione is muggle-born. I'd say that they are probably two of the most powerful students. And Voldemort isn't pure-blooded either. So perhaps, certain families insistence on remaining pure-blooded will actually be their downfall. I wonder if there are a larger number of squibs born to pure-blood families than families that are mixed.

[milestogo]

Originally Posted by Cloudburst2000 Well, do you think that too much wizarding pure blood could be a bad thing? There are aonly a few pure-blooded wizarding families left so there must be lots of in-breeding -- cousins marrying cousins, etc. I would think that would be a bad thing. Wouldn't it weaken their magic over time? That's why in-breeding isn't allowed. It can cause health problems in the future and such especially in-breeding over a long period of time It is really rather telling that the most powerful wizards we've seen from the younger students are not pure-blooded. Harry's mom was a muggle-born and Hermione is muggle-born. I'd say that they are probably two of the most powerful students. And Voldemort isn't pure-blooded either. So perhaps, certain families insistence on remaining pure-blooded will actually be their downfall. I wonder if there are a larger number of squibs born to pure-blood families than families that are mixed.

Well I never said that I agreed with had; I'm really against that kind of thing. But I think that's what people like Malfoy think unfortunatly. It's really a bad thing of course!!

[*Elle*]

Originally Posted by Cloudburst2000 Well, do you think that too much wizarding pure blood could be a bad thing? There are aonly a few pure-blooded wizarding families left so there must be lots of in-breeding -- cousins marrying cousins, etc. I would think that would be a bad thing. Wouldn't it weaken their magic over time? That's why in-breeding isn't allowed. It can cause health problems in the future and such especially in-breeding over a long period of time It is really rather telling that the most powerful wizards we've seen from the younger students are not pure-blooded. Harry's mom was a muggle-born and Hermione is muggle-born. I'd say that they are probably two of the most powerful students. And Voldemort isn't pure-blooded either. So perhaps, certain families insistence on remaining pure-blooded will actually be their downfall. I wonder if there are a larger number of squibs born to pure-blood families than families that are mixed.

Although I think it's icky isn't it a myth that inbreeding causes health problems? I know it was an issue with my English Bulldog who was really over inbreeded (not a word?) and died when he was only Six months old. But he was a dog.

I think that is a really good observation about the non-pure bloods sometimes being more powerful then teh purebloods. Just look at Neville. IMO Harry and Hermione are more powerful then Ron and he comes from an old pureblood family. Plus Harry is way more powerful then Malfoy.

But then of course you have Sirius and James (who even though is dead, he still defied Voldemort three times without being killed so he must have been powerful) so I guess maybe it's depends on the person.

[Kimberly]

I would think inbreeding would be a problem too. But I'm not sure how much the pureblood wizards know about genetic defects. I wonder if there is a magic term for genetics. What about physics?

Also I think it was Hagrid who made the point that there couldn't be any true "pure" blood wizard family. I would bet if you went far enough back in the Malfoy line you would find some muggles.

Also, do you guys think that muggles or wizards came first? Maybe everyone use to be able to use magic and then some people lost the talent and therefore became muggles.

[Cloudburst2000]

Originally Posted by *Elle* Although I think it's icky isn't it a myth that inbreeding causes health problems? I know it was an issue with my English Bulldog who was really over inbreeded (not a word?) and died when he was only Six months old. But he was a dog. I think that is a really good observation about the non-pure bloods sometimes being more powerful then teh purebloods. Just look at Neville. IMO Harry and Hermione are more powerful then Ron and he comes from an old pureblood family. Plus Harry is way more powerful then Malfoy. But then of course you have Sirius and James (who even though is dead, he still defied Voldemort three times without being killed so he must have been powerful) so I guess maybe it's depends on the person.

No, it's not a myth. Now, if in-breeding oly happens once then there is only a very teeny-tiny chance of problems. The problem comes with continuos in-breeding that occurs over multiple generations. In these cases, the gene pool is very limited and nothing new is coming in. Also, any genetic problems are much more likely to show up with continuos in-breeding. A good example of the problem of in-breeding is cheetahs. There are very few cheetahs left so they've been in-breeding for years, and this has made their gene pool very small. Cheetahs tend to suffer alot more health problems than most other species because of this, and scientists do believe that wild cheetahs will become extinct due to the low numbers and high levels of in-breeding.

Another good example of the problems of in-breeding is a human example, The former Russian(at least I believe it was the Russians) royalty used to have lots of in-breeding...cousins marrying cousins, etc). They in-bred because royalty only married royalty. Anyway, hemophilia(a genetic disease where your blood doesn't clot correctly) became a major problem in the royal family because of all the in-breeding. They had some family members die due to the disease.

So yes, continuos in-breeding over generations does cause problems. I wouldn't be surprised if the in-breeding between pure-blooded wizarding familiesactually led to a weakening of their magic which is why I wondered if larger numbers of squibs were born to pure-blooded wizarding families than to mixed wizarding families.

[Cloudburst2000]

Originally Posted by k46 Also I think it was Hagrid who made the point that there couldn't be any true "pure" blood wizard family. I would bet if you went far enough back in the Malfoy line you would find some muggles.

Actually, I thought when Hagrid was talking about there being no 'true' pure-blooded wizarding families left that he was referring to the families that call themselves pure-blooded as having magical ancestors that weren't witches/wizards but from other magical species like Veela. I doubt the 'pure-blooded' wizarding families have muggle ancestors but they are likely not pure-blooded wizarding magic. They have married other magical species in order to stay pure 'magically'. So they are probably not 'pure-blooded' wizards as they are 'pure-blooded' magical beings meaning all of their ancestors have possessed magic in one form or another. I've always thought the Malfoy family had some Veela blood in them. Draco and Lucius sure resemble Veelas, don't they?

[Kadie]

But wouldn't Male Veela's have the same effect as female veelas? If Draco and Lucious were Veela's then I think Hermione would've fallen for Draco at first sight (I don't know about same sex attraction to veelas which was why I used hermione she seemed to still have a level head around the Veela's at the Quidditch World Cup) I think that if there was Veela in their blood it is very diluted.

As far as which came first the muggle or wizard I'd assume that they probably both came at the same time assuming there is no religion behind this harry potter esque world (otherwise we'd have either a big bang, adam and eve and what have you) I think that if both wizard and muggle came at the same time or like someone said maybe everyone was a wizard and some just lost their powers. Another thought, maybe everyone is a wizard and are squibs therefor are Muggles who are unkown of their Wizardness.

[Kimberly]

I read a fic once where Draco was a Veela, since then I have been wondering about it. But I think J.K. would of mentioned Draco being a Veela in GoF since Fleur was there.

I've read a few books where the people who can use magic just are able to connect to parts of their brain that allow them to connect with the fabric of the world. So that was kind of the idea behind my question. Did everyone know how to use magic before or are we all working our way that way. If that makes sense. I don't think I'm explaining myself well...

Good idea about the inbreeding causing more squibs.

[*antarian angel*]

But I think J.K. would of mentioned Draco being a Veela in GoF since Fleur was there.

yeah, it probably is something that she would have mentioned. plus, when she describes Draco, she doesn't use the words "dashingly handsom" and he doesn't usually have a lot of girls around him, except Pansy Parkinson. However, we are learning what Draco looks like through Harry, so maybe he doesn't see it because Malfoy is a guy. (not that that would have stopped him if we were talking fanon...)

Did everyone know how to use magic before or are we all working our way that way.

that's a really interesting question, Harry Potter related or not. it's hard to wrap the mind around, but still very intriguing. i'm not sure if everyone used to be magical or if everyone used to be muggles...but i would guess that it started as a mix.

it would be very interesting to know if the magical population has grown or declined over time. that might answer some of our questions...along, probably, with raising a few more!

[Luinélwen]

In regard to what cme first the "muggle" or the "wizard", it could have happened several ways (like the chicken and the egg). 1.Muggles were first and some developed the skills over generation, like a mutation or evolution. 2. Wizards were fist and some 'lost' the magic or it 'bred-out' over generations. 3. Both at the same time, as with todays HP society.

The whole 'in-breeding' of 'pure-bloods' reminds me of an ancient British family. They were the equivelant of royalty, they married brother and sister to keep the royal like pure and not mingled with the people of 'lower' status. Eventully the line ended because the family members died younger with each generation and then ceased to exist.

Before Christianity it was not unusuall though for 2nd cousins to 'marry' or even half brothers and sisters, which didn't cause many defects.

[iamkricket]

I've been posting on this thread for a while, and I didn't know there was a 'list' at the beginning, can i be added? Thanks.
Sorry I don't have much to add to the discussion at this point. The whole "breeding, races, inter-mixing" topic is interesting enough, but kind of squicky in my mind, so I'll wait it out.