*Coccy*

I don't think that ML were a totally different couple in S3 otherwise i wouldn't have still loved them
and i surely do love them in season 3 too. I love their scenes If it wasn't for M&L i wouldn't have still watched the show at one point (compared to how in s1 i loved it as a whole too)
They're a bit different in some scenes (not the whole season IMO they have many scenes where i actually recognize them as the characters from the previous seasons) but for the most part i see them being changed by experiences and growing up. And they weren't the only ones. It's realistic for teenagers to have this kind of moments. I agree that they needed more time and they needed to talk more about what had happened to them. The writing got lazy and not only for M&L. Maria broke up with Michael from nonewhere and let's not talk about Isabel.
But i also understood their (ML) need to be finally together. Even with their problems and the existing issues between them it's obvious that they're happier together than apart. When Liz said that in "busted" i get it. I get what she meant.
They were also scared to lose the other one and i can understand it after everything they went through. They had too many things to handle all at once.

GrhmLz

Yeah, I think for me, I just didn't see the 'changes' as 'ML changes.' For me, S1/S2 was about a 'cross-species ML relationship' and S3 was a reinvented 'humanized ML.' There was still some minor inclusion of the sci-fi elements, but it was very downplayed. In my opinion, there is a difference between personality morphing and then characters 'growing with experience' and what I was seeing was a real 'morphing.' I think part of the differences I noted was that they shifted ML away from being characters in a sci-fi drama, to mere 'drama characters.' They were tying to 'humanize' S3 too much, especially with Max, when Max was a character who wasn't 'human' in S1 - the whole draw for alot of us (maybe not all) is that he did come from another world and then this special love blossomed with an 'ordinary' human girl. Then S2 had Max coming to terms with him being this important leader, which could have been molded better in S3, coming to terms with mistakes and growing as a leader, and then the writing completely did a 180 degree turn away from that, which wasn't cool to me at all. I'm not a fan of the S3 finale that tries to erase that whole history with Max's little speech about how he's not really a King, Michael's not really his second-in-command, and Isabel is not really a princess etc. etc.

Also, in addition to this, I think that unfortunately, it didn't matter what the writers did in a S3, storyline wise. The Tess/baby mess forever 'stole' the initial magic that made ML who they were in S1. They were bound to remain 'tainted' in the eyes of alot of ML fans no matter what, without a 'mindwarp erasure' storyline, it's why Roswell lost alot of it's loyal ML fanbase come the end of S2 and S3. I remember alot of us being so mad about the fake 'mindwarp' spoilers. The few sci-fi moments they tried to 'shove in' there as a 'cheapened reminder' of who ML were supposed to be, felt 'forced' to me after the Tess crap that was never properly resolved. I just don't think S3 was written very well, to be honest. Just to share, I do know another poster here on the forum, who I've had some discussions with about Roswell, another ML fan who watched S1 after the show was already off the air. She told me she didn't even bother to watch most of S2 nor S3, even though she ended up owning all the DVDs. She wouldn't because S1 ML is what she liked and what she wanted to remember. I kind of envy her that, she knew the direction ahead of time and could prevent herself from enduring seeing the rest of the 'downfall' ... S1 ML is all she'll really know in a way, with her own eyes at least. It was sad for me back then, I was one of the few ML fans who stuck around for S3 until the end of it, hoping beyond hope that maybe the writers could salvage the mess that they made in the end of S2.

*Coccy*

I remember reading the spoilers about season 3 before watching it.. the way some people described M&L in that season was scaring
but then when i actually watched it i thought that it wasn't that bad. Not at all. Some people crucified them it was so excessive and i didn't feel that it was always justified by their actual actions in the show. It seemed like if everything they did was wrong regardless.
Some fans of other couples would sell their own mother to get for their ship the kind of scenes that M&L have in ALL the seasons. No kidding

The ending of season 2 when M&L didn't agree about Alex's death.. Now that is OOC and completely forced for them both. They're not recognizable as the same characters from season 1 for me. They both annoyed me but i didn't stop being a dreamer and i still wanted them together (because yes they annoyed me but i understood them to a degree.) So I guess that after that everything compared to it would look better to me
Their scenes from season 3 are like a medicine.
Season 1 is the best. After that the writing started getting worse and worse.
In many ways ML were one of the few things that still made sense and had some depth. LOL it makes me laugh that some non-dreamer fans are able to say that the ending with them married is the only thing that made sense and felt right.



I think that this is the main reason.
It's the reason of why the dreamer fanbase, at least the "old one" kinda split in two and some were able to enjoy season 3 while others hated it regardless.
nowadays "new dreamers" have a different perception because they can see everything together. Also new tv-shows are so much worse toward the shippers that for some people M&L are heaven compared to the current tv-couples.

I'm one of those dreamers that didn't feel like MT ruined M&L for good. Not at all.
I may dislike some things but they don't bother me too much.

I can understand the others that may have a different perception though because something similar happened to me with Luke and Lorelai.

anyway Roswell taught me that i firstly have to watch a show by myself and then read other people's opinions only after i watched it. Other people can involuntarily influence our perception of things. Fanbases tend to create "opinions trends" too where it's established that if something is seen as bad or good by one group then everyone must see it like that.
I suggested roswell to some of my friends and they watched it but i never shared my opinions about some things before they had watched everything. Believe it or not but i hardly told them that M&L were my main ship I didn't want to influence them with MY opinion.

GrhmLz

Yeah, I think it was because alot of us fans were critical of the writing directions - I mean, if I were to take S3 and pretend it was it's own show/entity, and I wasn't comparing it to S1 (or some of S2) - it's certainly passable. Compared to other shows today?! Most definitely, I would take it in a heartbeat, lol.

Overall, I do not like S3, but I can still stand to watch it and there are certain plot points, and a few episodes that I liked, but some of the ideas that I thought had potential I just think could have used better development. First off, I agreed with Jonathon Frakes' own sentiments after the fact ... that they shouldn't have dropped the majority of the sci-fi storytelling in the final season. It wouldn't have been perfect, after S2's mess, but I think ML would have at least felt a bit more 'familiar' to fans. Secondly, I liked the idea of them bringing the second shapeshifter into the story, Langley, I just wish he could have had more importance and more backstory that connected back into some of the S1 storyline. His episodes, even though I don't like the 'Max searching for his son' plot at all, are generally a couple that I don't mind watching. Then there is Khivar. I liked the idea of bringing him to earth, to the audience, of us being able to see the source of all the Antarian drama brought to earth, but I think it was a poor casting choice, and the storyline was executed very poorly. I would have prefered a character who was more of a threat, a real villain to be reckoned with, not a one episode arc character that was about him being lovesick for Vilandra/Isabel and that's all there was to him.

I do like Ch-ch-changes and the concept of it. I actually wish this could have been explored earlier in S3, in place of a baby search storyline, because at least this would have been strictly ML-centered in plot, something that didn't involve a connection to a third party (a baby from a one-night stand with one of the show's most hated characters).

I liked this and didn't at the same time. I liked it, because it gave Liz some decent story instead of just being some backdrop character to a broken up 'main relationship' who was hanging out with Sean. At least here, she was actively involved in seeking out Alex's killer and finding out what really happened to him. That was very interesting for me to see Liz take charge, when her gut told her she was right. To me, that's not OOC of Liz in and of itself, because I can see Liz being outright loyal to her friends or getting answers. Just like in S1, during the RiverDog episode, she told Max she was going to get answers, and she didn't come to see him for his permission. I think we just saw that being embellished on a greater scale, while ML were on the outs with each other.

On the other hand?! What I didn't like was the way they didn't agree. I do agree about the characters becoming OOC to a degree with this because I feel it was done intentionally - it was 'forced' because the writers needed to create a set of circumstances in order for Max to sleep with Tess. So, that's why I end up with mixed feelings on this particular plot point.

Yup, we're called 'spoiled dreamers' - alot of us split off and then fit into that category. It was kind of necessary for discussion purposes because dreamers didn't want to 'war' with other dreamers and all of us as fans wanted to feel comfortable expressing our opinions, so spoiled dreamers ended up with their own thread.

I also think that, yeah, it's definitely a different experience when you watch the show after it's off the air and get to watch all the episodes at once.

I think this might be easier or more the case when a person gets to watch a show, after the fact. At least, that's my opinion. Having experienced Roswell firsthand while it was airing, and then coming to the boards to discuss it, I can honestly say it wasn't so much a matter of 'influencing' each other as it was ... finding a huge group of people who shared your interests and were looking for similar things to happen on the show with storyline, characters, and relationships. There were a whole bunch of threads open to general discussion, theories, CHADS ... and it was amazing that fans could come up with such similar ideas or be hoping for certain things to reveal themselves off of storyline that was being revealed in S1. Seriously?! I remember theorizing in my head beforehand after watching a new episode, coming to the threads, reading, and being like ... 'OMG, I thought of that!' or 'OMG, that's what I want to see happen too' or 'That's what I already thought too' etc. etc. Shipping was intense back then but the discussions and theories were just as much fun.

Yeah, for me, the baby storyline just completely did ML in for another season. I HATED the sex but probably could have lived with it ... eventually. Maybe. And it's not just ML - babies shared with third parties just kill any ship IMO, I don't like it, it destroys the essence of what makes a couple special to begin with. Sharing a baby with someone is a HUGE connection and deal, I don't take it lightly, so I don't in any storylines either.

*Coccy*

the problem in season 3 and the show overall after s1 is a generic issue about the writing that isn't related only to M&L. The other characters and storylines were even worse for me.
M&L flawed and all seemed to be, even in s3, the only "connection" to the previous seasons and the sci-fi element of the show. And this says a lot since even them weren't developed to their full potential.

the writing got lazy after season 1. Even for the other characters.. there're a lot of things, a lot of potential that wasn't used.


they should have used that storyline more because it had potential. I didn't like Langley as a character but i found him interesting. I find him more interesting than Nacedo.
Both Langley and Nacedo were bad and did bad things like killing people the difference between them was the reason of why they acted like that. Nacedo was robotic.. he didn't seem to have reasons or any depth as a character. Langley on the other hand desperately wanted to be human.. and yet he didn't realize that it was his behavior that made him "alien" and inhuman not his body.
He actually did a human thing only in the end when he seemed to have a bit of compassion toward Max (i wish we could know more about why he hated the original Zan) and he gave him that advice.
I found it interesting because i think that in the show they played a lot with this theme. Even with Pierce in s1. The concept that being alien doesn't automatically make you bad and being human doesn't make you good. It's always about people. Pierce was a human but Max with his half human dna was more human than Pierce.


The show have many of those bits that had potential but the writers didn't take advantage of. For example Langley could have answered to some questions that season 2 created.
I even remember that in the episode they cut a scene where he acknowledged that Tess was an enemy (that's why Max later said "YOU WERE RIGHT i slept with the enemy" he was replying to something that Langley had previously said! ) the implication can be huge. What he knew?
Another cut scene that had huge implications is one from the episode when Michael became the king.
I've read that Max and Liz were supposed to notice that the destiny book changed after Max's death and placed Michael in his place.
I wish they didn't cut it because i think that it further showed that they make their own destiny.

I don't fault just the writers because i think that they didn't feel like they had the chance and the time to actually fully develop some ideas and this must have been frustrating for them.


the changes-panacea-chant down babylon arc is my favorite from the season
it's bad because it was starting to get better by the end
they wasted so many episodes about Isabel's marriage that could have been used for more important things (and not just about M&L)



exactly. She wasn't OOC when she tried to find Alex's killer. It made sense for her.

She was made OOC more from Max's pov just to push him with Tess.
They created a "bad Liz" for him so that he could give a chance to Tess that seemed more "good" in that moment.
The way i see it, Tess wasn't the one made OOC to "please the dreamers"
For me it's the other way around! and it started way before "departure"!
And i find it funny that some people can criticize one storyline with the excuse that it doesn't make sense YET they didn't notice all the other nonsense happened before it just because it was convenient for their favorite character. Like if the story wasn't flawed before and everything made sense.
And it's ok, everyone has a favorite i just find it hypocritical when some fans bash the dreamers and in general the fans that dislike Tess because she killed Alex. (I still see the same hypocritical dreamer bashing made by some fans but this is a separate discussion perhaps )
If M&L are assassinated just to pimp a ship everything is ok apparently

For me Max and Liz were made OOC and Liz was transformed into the bad guy from Max's pov just to pimp M&T and "please" Tess for a while. I still can't believe that Liz had to HELP Tess and she had to degrade herself by pretending to sleep with Kyle. She had to make Max believe that she was, basically, another person.
She had to tell him that she didn't want to die for him. It was like telling him that what had happened the previous year was all a lie.
It was his worst fear and she had to make it real when she had always tried to prove him that he wasn't a monster and being with him was worth it for her no matter what. It's terrible. Tess should get a chance with Max without Liz having to be turned in a bipolar woman. And it's funny because even though Liz was made "bad" in Max's eyes and she "helped" Tess soo much he still loved Liz and he didn't feel the same for Tess and Tess herself knew it.

"evil Tess" wasn't the only inconsistent and forced storyline from season 2. For M&L it was actually worse because those two love each other and they had no reason to stay separate and be miserable other than the fact that they wanted to force a non existent triangle with a character that was introduced with that purpose only. (too bad because she could have found her "purpose" with Kyle)

Katims himself sorta admitted that they had to make Max OOC to put him with Tess. That's says a lot.

what was OOC in Liz after Alex's death?
Only regarding Max. The fact that she seemed to forget what had happened in TEOTW and how Max could wrongly perceive her words. The way i see it the writers made her like that on purpose.
The real Liz would either tell him the whole truth or if she couldn't do that she would take in consideration the fact that Max didn't know any of it and that could make the communication between them very hard.
Instead the writers pretended that TEOTW never happened yet they still kept Max's reaction to it and how it totally affected his perception of Liz, basically. How convenient
It was forced and it's just obvious that they did that because Max needed to be miserable. They knew that if Max had known the truth then they couldn't create their little soap opera because the truth would remove the main reason of why things between M&L were so bad. And that's all i guess.

angelface211

Hey all this is a great discussion but let's please keep this thread to Liz only we do have a general Roswell thread that can be used to discuss the show as a whole but this is a Liz appreciation thread. Thank you

Crystaline

I think what happened is that Liz and Max adopted this 'us against the world' mentality. And to a certain extent, I guess they had to. Because there were many things changing in their lives, things they never had to deal with before, and it forced them to adapt and mature. So the whole Bonnie and Clyde thing, while a bit out there for them, I get it. My grievance is not so much with their behavior being slightly altered, but with the way their relationship was being written. It was handled quite carelessly at times. And after the damage of season two, I was expecting the exact opposite.

*Coccy*

like when in Changes Liz "exploded". Since we didn't really get a "build up" to it when she could show her feelings before that when she finally did it felt harsh toward Max. and he wanted to talk about her feelings but she backed off instead and i understand why she did that .. by going away she ultimately wanted to give them a chance because she needed time to reflect about herself. Yet it was a good occasion for them to finally talk but it happened in bad circumstances. But then he died and she felt it.. and i think that it made her further realize how important he was for her. I feel her pain when she was talking to Maria and she said that all her dreams didn't make sense anymore now that he was dead
How many times M&L had to learn it the hard way?
the things that didn't happen to those two and they survived them all.
Some people give up for so much less.
No wonder why when they're together they try to enjoy every second of it. Their need to be together and the fact that they can't ultimately stay separate for too long ("just friends" is doomed with them it didn't work in season 1 and it didn't work in season 3 after he died and came back.) is understandable.


speaking about Liz in "chant down babylon" i so relate to the fact that she's one of those people that aren't able to cry when the ones that they love die. Some people may mistake this for "coldness" but it isn't like that. Her reaction to Max's death was dramatic. She seemed like a statue. Like when Alex died she also comforted Maria and she wasn't able to let people comfort her.
Being like that...It's the worst thing because you need to cry. It's a way to let the feelings go. You feel a bit better after that. But if you don't cry it's worse.
In a way by not crying people find a way to avoid admitting that the person really died...
The fact that she got drunk and yelled at Maria was so un-Liz like but it was her way to deal with what had happened. She didn't want to be comforted.
I think that the only time that she did let someone comfort her was when her grandma died and Max hugged her. (it's the same for him. she's the only one who really saw his tears. He did let her comfort him with a hug. See the ending of "control" and 4aaab. It's their personality, i think that they both want to be the strong ones that help the others.)

GrhmLz

The behavior alteration still bothered me, but yeah, I definitely agree. I almost kind of felt insulted with it, like I did with Liz and S2, where Liz was kind of being treated like a background character while she wasn't 'seeing' Max anymore. Liz was a smart character, of course she should have been kept in the loop. I didn't like the feeling that S3 ML were kind of being treated like an afterthought as well.

Yeah, I agree, I think Liz was the type to bottle up her grief and then to try and redirect it into other places. For example, with Alex, her investigation became her total focus and then later on with Max, she just withdrew and tried to act like nothing was bothering her. But her roommate, who barely even knew her, noticed it.

Crystaline

Liz was even literally in the background of that season two cast poster. I still hate looking at it.

*Coccy*

worst poster ever
I disliked that too
maybe her position was casual but yeah i don't like it, i don't even like how the others look
But look at the positive, instead of seeing her as a background we can see her as the "taller" figure in the picture because she seems above all the other characters kinda like the apex of a pyramid

anyway when i look at it I have the same "wft are you serious?" feeling that i have when i watch the new covers of the dvd's where Isabel seems the main character


btw promo pics (of any show) don't really count because they aren't even chosen by the writers, it's the network that have the power and the photographers that they pay to make some pics. Sometimes i feel like everything is "random", without an artistic purpose and they don't care.
M&L had some promo pics in the first season but to be honest i prefer the episode stills, the photoshoot that they did when they were touching heads and that beautiful promo pic of them that was used for a black&white advertising of sexual healing.



why we don't have a HQ version *sob*

Pempees

Oh yeah, the cast poster. I remember that. Hated it so much. I mean without Liz, there wouldn't even be the show

Crystaline

I love, love, love that black & white poster. But I've always thought the way Liz's neck is arched there looked painful.

angelface211

Ya I hated that poster and the dvd covers where they centered around Isabel and not Liz

*Coccy*

lucky me i have the old ones (european version that has M&L on the cover of season 2 too those are still the same though )
the new Isabel's show covers are hilarious lol
also the back covers make it seems that Michael and Isabel were a couple talk about a totally random choice of pics.