a fine mess

FireQueen

Thanks for the new thread

For me nothing would change. It's still a Barry. I could have been more accepting of it if Savitar was from another Earth or, as you suggested, Malcolm Thawne. Alas, he's not.

They can pretend it was never there and they probably will. I won't forget though. I didn't do it with any of the storylines they've written, whether good or bad. This sounds like the worst of them all.

Killing Iris-Iris off. She could have pulled a Eddie and commit suicide so she wouldn't turn into Savi-Iris and/or create her. I mean, they could potentially suggest the same with Barry but since he's the protagonist he'd be talked out of it or saved by the Speed Force.

A while ago I read a spoiler that stated that Barry would do anything to save Iris, including sacrificing his own life. Maybe he'll do it to prevent Savitar's creation?

Okay. They can do it but it'll be over in one episode and with not enough PoV on Iris' part. I'm not against the idea of Iris telling Barry that she believes in him, that he's not Savitar, that she trusts him with her life, etc. because that would be in character but if that's all she gets...

I doubt they'd want to drag it out because in your scenario they wouldn't break up anyway so why spend half a season on it?

At the end of S1 Eddie and Ronnie died. Iris didn't mourn at all and Caitlin moved on with fake Jay after the premiere. That's how they roll. One tearful conversation is all one could hope for.

Yeah. This is one of the reasons why I hated 3x19. The happy future Team Flash had no women. That and the way the show portrayed Joe/Barry vs Joe/Wally. I should probably go back posting in the rant thread

About the time remnant theory...it's most likely correct. The show stressed the fact that Barry created time remnants of himself to save Iris but Savitar killed them all, mostly. According to the theory, the time remnant was created to die for Iris but he did not, Savitar spared him to ensure his existence. The time remnant went crazy because he had all of Barry's memories but no tether/home and turned into Savitar. And honestly this theory would have worked even though Savitar had killed someone else. Wouldn't Barry create time remnants of himself if Savitar had threatened to kill Joe or Cisco too? I believe he would. My question is did the show pick Iris for a reason or they did it just to be mean and cruel and have the image of a Barry killing Iris? It'd better be the former!

The fact is that it'd be quite easy to get rid of SaviBarry if he were a time remnant. All Barry has to do is break the loop and NOT create time remnants to save Iris. This way SaviBarry ceases to exist, right? My head hurts again.

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bonnie51

fair enough though just out of curiosity... what is the difference for you between savitar being from another year as opposed to potentially a different time line?

it could be... depending on the reveal/s regarding motivation, etc.... it could be. even with a great reveal... its still not that good a story line imo.

maybe? i think that might have to with the idea of him going into the speed force at the end of the season...

maybe if he does that, there's no reason for savitar to kill barry? maybe he strikes a deal with him - i go into the speed force, you don't kill iris?

- although i expect savitar would have been defeated before that happens so i'm not really confident in that theory lol.

fair, maybe half a season would be too long. she could move, out, etc.. maybe 4-5 episodes. i just think this is different than just about anything they've done before and it revolves around the characters they have created to be this always and forever couple... so to me, then you have to do something different to develop - explain - whatever - them moving forward after this story line wraps up.

sad but true.

at least tracy wasn't there

i saw a you tube video where the review said they needed tracy to be around because if caitlain is killer frost into season 4... then they need someone to take her place...

and i'm like, uh, no? even if she is killer frost in season 4 and i hope so... how bout the show develops other characters and gets out of its box and does more pov, etc... and maybe, just maybe, uses a different set or two? i don't need another scientist or anymore dumbing dumb of barry, etc.. just for someone to come in and do it all over again. the video's point was that this was because if caitlain is killer frost, this was the way to introduce the entire team to tracy for season 4 and god, i hope they are wrong.



my head hurts with this theory. it hurts with most, this one gives me so many more questions.

]1, how does a time remnant have all the memories of everything? especially if he's trapped in the speed force?

2. so savitar spares the time remnant - whose himself - so after getting trapped in the speed force - he gets out, goes back in time before he's created, to kill iris - which actually then has nothing to do with his existence as a time remnant since her fate wouldn't be directly tied to his as it would if it were his death that caused barry to break because if he's created before she dies... i don't see how he then has to kill her to exist? if she hasn't died yet, it really doesn't matter what he does as far as i can tell. if he's created after she dies, that's different.

3. how does jay garrick know him if all he is a time remnant that got trapped in the speed force? if he was trapped in the speed force, he can't really go planet hopping and therefore, jay wouldn't seem to know who he was.

4.how does he have followers? again, if he only exists for X amount of time... i don't see how he gains followers as he's trapped in the speed force? because he didn't escape until this season....

5. how does he call himself the future flash when he's just a time remnant whose not even the "real" flash whose been in prison and just got out? because then he really wouldn't be the "future flash" because than if he's a time remnant than that implies that there is a future barry allen out there somewhere other than him.


none of this means that this theory isn't true. hell, i'd probably say its the most likely one... but for me personally, its the one my mind has the hardest time accepting. because of the lack of clarity regarding time remnants, time travel, what time remnants are capable of and what they are not, etc... i'm quite possibly over thinking this and giving it more thought than what the show did, lol, idk, all i know is that if he's a time remnant, its going to make my head hurt much more than if he has to kill iris to exist or as someone else suggested, this barry has been influenced by the speed force to punish barry bby continually effing up the time line by going back into the past and then the future and then the past and then the future, etc. so its barry, but its a barry whose been maneuvered by the speed force into killing iris in an attempt to break barry so he'd stop effing up the time line.

Quote:

yeah, that's a good point. kinda addressed it above in saying he really wouldn't NEED to kill iris specifically then. and why doesn't wally create time remnants of himself too? they stretched this out so long and left not that much time for sound explanation, it has me worried.

this could potentially be an okay story line or finish to the season if there was the time to really dive into all these questions and issues and have them adequately addressed. alas, we have 3 episodes left and part of the next one at least is barry getting medically induced amnesia.

exactly. and whose to say this barry is going to create time remnants since know he nows that it doesn't even really work? its not like emo barry told him he created 25 and needed to create 30.

maybe that is where captain cold comes in? but then if there are no time remnants than it wouldn't seem to be possible that savitar was a time remnant.

FireQueen

You mean the difference between Savitar being from another Earth and Savitar being from another timeline? If so, it's not easy to explain but I see characters from different timelines as the same minus some changes in their lives.

Flashpoint, the timeline with the most changes, still had Iris as a reporter supportive of her brother and in a rocky relationship with her father. Cisco was a dickish billionaire but Barry still saw in him his Cisco, as we saw when he got through to him with the Dante reference, etc.

Now the Earths are a bit different. Earth-2 was fairly similar in a sense but think about Earth-38, where there are aliens and no Flash, Green Arrow, STAR Labs, etc. Even Earth-3 has no Barry because as far as we know Jay had no kids. Out there in the multiverse, there could be a Earth where Barry is a evil speedster and there is no Iris, Joe, Team Flash, etc.

Exactly. No, no and no They should also demote some characters to recurring. Wells and Julian (if he stays) come to mind. I would also be okay with Wally being recurring since we don't need two speedsters in every episode.

Because he separated from Barry when he created him. Basically, he was Barry up to the point of his creation. Savitar the time remnant got trapped in the Speed Force only four years after he killed Iris so he remembers everything that had happened before, when he and Barry were still joined as one and Iris was still alive. Now I don't know how accurate that is because I don't fully understand how a speedster creates a time remnant.

Iris' fate is directly tied to his existence because if Barry hadn't seen Iris die at the hands of Savitar, he wouldn't have thought about creating time remnants to save her. Savitar has to kill Iris and toss Barry into a future where she dies (3x09) so Barry is forced to think of ways to save her, which include creating time remnants of himself. To get this theory, we've to accept that the characters are stuck in a time loop.

Jay had never met Savitar before 3x09, right? All he heard were Speed Force rumors, which makes sense considering that Savitar was trapped in the Speed Force and Jay is a speedster.

I am not sure but he does speak to them through the Philosopher's Stone. It's through the stone that he tricked Julian, Cisco and Wally. They need to explain this business with the stone and how it features into Tracy and Barry's trap.

I'm afraid that's just semantics. Barry and SaviBarry share the same memories and the same past. Once upon a time, Savitar was Barry. Now he's more a future Flash than the future Flash. I guess he's just so arrogant that he believes he's the boss, the future Flash

I personally don't like this theory because it doesn't feature Iris in a way that makes her extremely important to SaviBarry. The writers just picked her to give the protagonist a person to save. As I have said before, Barry would have created the time remnants to save Joe or Wally as well. SaviBarry is killing Iris to a) ensure his existence and b) punish Barry because he has everything and deserves nothing. SaviBarry the time remnant went crazy because he was meant to die for Iris. He didn't, she did. He lost his way home and his existence was void of love (from Iris, Joe, the team...).

I'd rather this was the future Flash and not a time remnant so they could have used Iris' death as the catalyst, etc. Maybe the theory is wrong but they made a point to mention the time remnants in the scene where it finally hits Barry that Savitar is him.

Yeah, except now Cisco has wiped all his memories so who knows what is he going to remember? Maybe he'll forget the time remnants part and his amnesia ensures SaviBarry's existence.

bonnie51

yeah, lol. i blame my evil time remnant for typing in year
as far as i'm aware, no one needs die for my time remnant to exist. i'll go consult my philsopher's stone (aka a rock outside) to double check though


exactly. nothing agains the actress really but just.. no.

i like wally but i agree, though i'm not sure how you do that - unless he goes off to earth three or some other earth to be the flash?

people i'd be okay with being recurring

Julian - i'd be okay with him leaving because really... we need him for ?
HR / wells / whatever they want to call him - love tom. but enough's enough.

people i'd like to stay at about where they are at:

jessie, jay - maybe even a little less though he's not on much so that's hard to do - and cecile.

if they all took a little down tick in time i'd be ok.


which leaves KF/Caitlain and as i've said before, i'm completely fine with 17-18 episodes instead of 22/23 if she were KF. And some of those could be brief 1-2 scene appearances so in reality, i could totally accept 14-15 episodes where she was reasonably involved to potentially heavily involved, and 8-9 where she either was written off screen doing something shady or popped up in the closing / opening scene and that was it.




but, the issue with that is zoom. zoom's time remnant's, who were more closely linked - days / weeks / months - didn't seem to have the ability to be aware of what was going on with the "original" zoom and vice versea.

so other than it being a way out to explain this story line... that just doesn't then seem to make sense.

see, i disagree with this. i think if he knew there was a direct threat to iris he couldn't deal with by "conventional" means, barry would create time remnants, even without seeing her die.

but since the show chose to have him see her die, then i suppose i can accept that part of the theory, even if i don't totally agree.


i can accept the time loop to a point - and that point is where barry continues to eff up the time line. how can there be a time loop when he keeps changing either the past or the history? because wouldn't that then change the loop?

correct but again, how are there rumors? because if savi's in the speed force, he's not conquering any words and spreading rumors. for there to a rumor implies to me that savitar went somewhere else or was from somewhere else, etc... and i just struggle with the idea of someone who was in prison, then gets out, then goes creates a legend for himself, then returns to the past, etc...

him being from the future or from the future from a different earth is just easier for my brain to process apparently.

yeah, that they do. its why i think the reveal would have been better 4-5 episodes again... they'd have more time to try to explain all of this. cause 3x23 will be a big battle or confrontation for a decent part so i don't think there will be that much explanation there

yeah, it could be that way? idk... the whole thing is just.. idk.
yeah, i like the idea of the future flash better and then her death is the trigger / catalyst. it begs whether or not there was more for me at least but clearly would be the catalyst and what got the ball rolling, so to speak.

maybe? i suppose that's possible. i just feel like him being a time remnant - while highly likely - might offer more questions than answers regarding time travel, time remnants and the philosopher's stone, etc.

FireQueen

Scratch the time remnant theory. New trailer...



Savitar to Barry: I only need for Iris so that you are driven so far into the dark that I can be born.

To me this seems to imply that SaviBarry is not a time remnant, he's this Barry gone dark after Iris' death. Of course, they can elaborate on this by making Iris' loss the catalyst that got the ball rolling and then other things went to s h i t, etc. Basically, what you said.

Cisco says that Savitar needs something from Killer Frost but once he's done with that, it's over for her. She is convinced they are a team but they are not? He's just using her?

Even if Barry kills Savitar he becomes him. They are making it seem like it's impossible to beat him

They need to explain how Captain Cold is alive. Maybe it ties into what happened on Legends. There's stuff with Lyla and Argus and King Shark. They want to build a army?

bonnie51

you beat me... lol.


this is most likely. or that its her death alone. don't know right now exactly but i'm leaning after that promo that it is her death alone. hence the "i only need" so that basically is what you said you needed, i think, then for this to not suck 100% is for it have to be her for him to become savitar and only her?

i don't think it really can be anything else with the promo... because "i only"... now, perhaps that's expecting things to make sense and be somewhat logical. but his transformation is because iris died, nothing more. either that or that is an incredibly misleading line.


which does then make me wonder what in the blue hell the whole point of kf was - other than just a distraction? because if that's all he needs... killer frost doesn't kill irs... we know this. he does. so if he only needs iris to die to be born...see, now the show has gone and made my head hurt again. maybe she freezes joes gone or takes cisco off to the woods for that apparent show down so they're not able to help barry save iris... at this point i don't think it can really be anything other than that for it to make sense.

it can't be "i only need this" and then be like "oh, yeah, this too" my bad. the scars on mi face effect my memory and what i need and am after.



i'm 100% that's the case.

not because it makes any sense - given what savitar's followers seemed to see about the future, what 2024 killer frost said, etc. - but because he's the villain and the big bad - and they need a cheap way to make caitlain / killer frost go running back to team flash and have caitlain return i'm sure he will try to betray her / betray her or caitlain will pop up for some reason and switch sides to team flash.

i don't even expect him to really need anything tbh at this point. at best it was just a distraction and way for the writers to let people see killer frost and now that the season is over... time for her to go back her in box.

well, if he really is the future flash, he should be, lol, comically. but i'm sure they'll find a way. might not make sense, but it'll happen.


lol. they do need to but given that we're waiting on explanations regarding savitar and everything, i'm not counting on it. #philosopherstone
#speedforce
#theyhavenoideasotheymade****up




main take aways from the promo

- savibarry's getting a couple uh...interesting scenes without a great deal of personal space. looks like iris will get her chance for that pep talk you mentioned. joe too.

- oh joy. going with the "that's not my name" thing ala hunter from last year " my name is zoom" . y'all got all that time and can't come up with a better villain trope than that?

- i think the whole kf / vibe thing is going to end up being misleading. don't ask why. just a gut feeling.

- the time travel line makes my head hurt even more

- king shark????????? what??????????? lyla????????

- not going to lie though. i would totally watch a savitar vs. king shark fight. lemme go get the popcorn

- i'm guessing either savitar finds out that kf went to star labs - from the stills in 3x21 or that she was thinking about whether or not she could trust him etc from the shot of him grabbing her by the throat or she didn't want to do whatever he wanted her to do - but realistically, if you need someone to do something, killing them isn't a great option, just saying.


- decent promo. overall now i'm more convinced than ever that i am more or less on the right track with the predictions.


- savitar's defeated - killed because.... #seasonfinale

- iris is alive
- barry temporarily enters the speed force
- either she betrays him or he betrays her or caitlain just pops up like someone at a bad surprise party... but one way or the other, i feel like this version of kf is done by 3x23 / 3x22.

maybe she tells julian she'll never forgive him for taking off the necklace so he leaves????


- if they kill him or barry kills him, maybe the funeral is savibarry's - though that'd be weird - but still. could be a possibility

FireQueen

I interpreted that line as "Iris is only dying because I need you to go dark so I can be born. If it weren't for this simple reason, she'd be alive".

I needed it to be only her for the simple reason that she's the only one in Barry's inner circle that is being brutally murdered. I swear, it's not about ships. It's about TPTB showing some respect to the character. I would have been fine if Savitar said "I need Iris and Team Flash to die so you can go dark blah blah blah" but then they should have added some gruesome scenes of SaviBarry killing Iris and Team Flash. Man, this season is so dark.

We know that seven years into the future Barry is not Savitar though. He's broken and lifeless, etc. but he's not a villain yet. Maybe after he goes back being the Flash he stumbles upon a situation that forces him to choose between good and evil. Without Iris there to keep him grounded, he makes bad choice after bad choice and gets stripped of his humanity. Remember when Iris told him that he couldn't kill Grodd to save her () because she didn't want him to lose his humanity? He spared Grodd's life because Iris convinced him to show mercy. Without her by his side, maybe Barry would be a killer? I don't know. I hope they give us some flashbacks of Savitar's origin story. I agree that they should have revealed him sooner

Furthermore, did they explain why Killer Frost is helping him? Is it just because she finds the situation hilarious? I'd like this character to have some agency He promised her salvation but wtf does that mean?

I think that future is already changing. Or Savitar was lying. He also said some promising things about Jesse. I don't remember if it was implied that Savitar and Killer Frost made "one hell of a team" for years or if she was caught way before him. We don't even know if she was freed/escaped from that cell after 2024 and did some amazing things afterwards, etc. Maybe that is the future the acolytes were talking about. Not that this matters anyway as we won't get to see it.

I still think she can obliterate him from existence with the power of a pep talk

He won't die or lose his hands. Definitely misleading.

bonnie51

could be. right now it is open for interpretation a little bit ala "i am the future flash or i am the future; flash" etc.

oh, no, i get it. i'm not saying its about the ship either. for it is about respecting Iris West, the character, not the love interest.

whether together or not - and it certainly appears together is the show's choice - Iris should be the constant in barry;s life. she should be the most important person. so in that regard, in a twisted way, it makes sense because the show hasn't made anyone else really parallel the level of devstation losing iris would be to barry - outside of maybe joe.

cisco would hurt him a lot. wally would hurt a lot. and frankly, if i were only a season 2/ 3 viewer of the show... i'd have some questions regarding how much of a friendship/connection barry and caitlain had.

so in a twisted way... iris was the obvious choice to say that if person X dies.. it'll destroy because there really isn't anyone else on that level. now, that does not make it a good idea, it just makes her the obvious choice if you were going to create this mess of a story line.

that it is and i don't know that he does... maybe everything that happens after is icing on the cake from his pov... like him crippling wally, etc..

possibly? that makes some sense but the way they are explaining it... i just don't know.

it was implied that at least initially, it was based on the fact that its barry. they said that that would explain why she trusted him so quickly.. which makes no sense.

because if you're going to say that caitlain's that drawn or connected to barry... they should have built that up more during the season for that to be believable. if this was early season 2 when they interacted a season 1, ok, maybe. and that's a maybe. but now? the last two years it was all about jay and julian and they don't even really interact....

its hard for me to say that that explanation makes sense. because it hasn't built for almost two years and the show is saying that all it takes for her to be a lemming is it to be barry... then what???? there has been build or evidence anytime in recent memory of that.

and even if its the idea of killer frost being intrigued by the idea of some version barry wanting to kill iris and seemingly wanting her to help...that still goes back to the idea that she trusts him implicitly just because he's barry. like if hr showed up wearing barry's face, she'd have happily gone off with him.

so it just bugs me. because if you're going to say that someone whose a villain, and by nature not that trusting... is going to trust someone because they look like someone they know... then you've got to do something to show that that's the case where even the original Caitlain feels something - the draw of working with and being around barry enough where she'll follow him unquestioned, etc.... its just random.

as bad as it that they have iris being killed off by barry, it make some logical sense in that they've stated that he's loved her forever, that they are soul mates, etc.. so if there was a person you lost to turn you evil, it'd be her. as stupid as the story line... there's a sense of logic there. bad, faulty logic, but there's a hint.


killer frost going from "why should i trust you?"

to "whatever you want" just because its barry? there's been no build to that, no sign on screen that the connection was there or that she might like-like him, etc for almost 46 episodes. you shouldn't ask people to go back to 2x01 or season one to be like "oh yeah, they did have a little connection" the closet thing we got was when he challenged her to kill him in the pipeline" and then there was no follow up or build.

regardless of whether or not he's using her... savibarry knew all he had to do was step out of his suit and be like "heyyy, girllll" and she'd fall in line. really? maybe in the future savi's from etc, that existed but the issue with that is how would killer frost know since she just took over and is from this time line? so even that doesn't make sense.

it goes back to making sense. if your going to have her reaction be that strong...you've got show a stronger relationship and connection.even as someone who wants them to interact more and wouldn't be 100% opposed to it one day... its gotta make more sense than this. you can't not have them interact much in meaningful ways and then just be like she trusts him because he's barry and that's all she needs. if the show wants me to believe that it needed to do a better job of showing that that kind of connection existed more recently than early season 2 and one episode of season 3.

end of rant. i think. it just bugs me, clearly. they just haven't given us the basis for her reaction being that strong to overcome what she knows about savitar and mistrust.

true but since we're not seeing that future, its also true that he was telling the truth. or, at least mostly.

and the only issue with the future changing is... wouldn't he know? since he's from the future, wouldn't he know, especially if it was something regarding him? like cisco having hands could not effect him... but if it effected him directly... i would think he would know that, similar to barry knowing how flash point was different.

yes, but the one issue there is, and its semantics, yes but if "you're a helluva team" that implies you had more of a run than a couple weeks, imo. that implied to me, how i took, that they were top / mirror master esque, so to speak, for a while.

that could be i suppose. and yes, it doesn't matter totally but it would matter just in the sense of what their relationship is for the rest of season 3, meaning that if he is just using her then clearly it is a lie but if he's not... then that future, which yes, we'll never see, clearly existed.

just because cisco says that doesn't mean that its neccessarily true because we know so little about what their dynamic is... its quite possible cisco doesn't understand what's going on.

that being said, its more likely that he's using her because of how i think they want the season to end.

probably can, lol. because there were shots of hm where he looked confused? startled? and what was with the suit being in chains? is that how he stores it? i am looking forward to that scene with her and savi though. just because it'll be a different take on their dynamic that we haven't really scene and i want to see them pull it off.


part of me thinks maybe julian tries to distract her and dies, lol... or caitlain reappears right as she's ready to freeze him and has her "cisco" moment that she had when barry dared her to kill him in the pipeline, etc. something like that.




EDIT:


so, apparently Killer Frost is going to head off to Star Labs and assist in Barry getting his memory back because she needs Savitar to regain his... basically same goal - ie Barry's memories, but not really the same, etc, etc... pretty sure that's where the whole "as soon as he gets what he wants" line comes from and potentially where Savitar slams her into the wall while in the suit? i mean, considering he would have no idea where he was and who she was... that would make some sense? could totally be a different scene but he would seem the type instead of wondering where he was as barry did that he might freak out a bit and react violently....

FireQueen

To me it makes sense because he's a twisted version of a person Killer Frost knows very well. At first I thought it was Ronnie but the "my child" comment caught me off guard. So I started leaning more towards Eobard because a evil Caitlin would trust her former evil mentor/father figure. Neither Ronnie nor Eobard would have had the audience in shock though. That left Barry and Cisco. The "my child" comment was freaking creepy but I started thinking that it wasn't meant to be taken literally. Killer Frost is Barry's child/creation because she's a result of Flashpoint.

I think Caitlin trusts Barry simply because they are friends. She doesn't have to like him romantically to trust him. Evil Caitlin would not trust Barry but she would trust evil Barry. I'm pretty sure she would have trusted evil Cisco too. The fact that evil Barry is hellbent on destroying Barry probably gave her the giggles. In my opinion Killer Frost hates Barry. She hates the others too but not as much as Barry. She has not come to terms with her reality and resents Barry for giving her powers that she did not want. Given that she also resents the fact that he is happy with Iris (3x07), the idea of evil Barry killing Iris is the icing on the cake. Since the show has not given us a reason why the powers turn Caitlin into a monster, my theory is that this happens because she's rejecting her reality. If she had embraced her powers instead of fearing them, she could have taken control over the evil Killer Frost.

Now I get why Killer Frost trusts Savitar but why is she helping him? Is it just revenge? What has he promised her? And from my understanding she's putting up with a lot of bs because Savitar is abusive to her. He bad mouths her, derides her and is threatening to choke her in the trailer. This doesn't sound like one hell of a team up because in actuality Savitar has all the power. They seem to have the same kind of relationship Killer Frost, Deathstorm and Reverb had with Zoom. Unless Killer Frost's perception is skewed and what is one hell of a team to her is an abusive relationship to everyone else.

He seems to melt under her touch but it won't last

I go back and forth between Caitlin coming back before the finale and her staying Killer Frost. If she has her Cisco moment then Caitlin reemerges but something makes me think we are not done with Killer Frost yet? The spoilers I saw are contradictory.

bonnie51

yes... but that alone iMO isn't realistic for someone to trust someone else. just because i might have an evil twin doesn't mean that someone who doesn't like me should trust them or make them trustworthy. imo. I don't doubt that that very well could be the logic the show used... but that hurts my head again lol.

potentially. and yes, it doesn't have to be romantic, i just meant that sometimes there are people who are just... magnetic to be around? idk what the word phrasing is, but whether your friends, lovers, etc... they're just... idk, special. and you feel connected or drawn to them and you want / need them around you, regardless of the nature of your relationship.

on some level, i am 100% sure this is true. at the same time... it should also give one pause. because if they are willing to destroy themselves... it begs the question of what they would be capable of doing to you. again, all of this for me is based off the notion that by simply being evil barry, she trusts him. if she were from the future as well and had memories of whatever their relationship was, i would be fine and would never need to see that relationship because it could be explained as simple as "she remembers". but that's not what is going on here.


potentially. i go back and forth on this. although i personally think it goes deeper than that. i think - and not just of barry - she has some built up, maybe not hatred, but resentment towards all of them. just a theory. and since i expect caitlain to emerge any second, its not one that will ever get played out so its rather pointless.

true, but then did earth two killer frost reject her reality as well? personally, i think its more based on pain and suffering fueling her powers, ala savitar's pitch to her about tracy was that she would be free of the pain and suffering of man - and the promo barry saying that savitar comes from pain and suffering and loss, etc...

i think the trauma she's had on the show and previously - she allowed to eat at her and internalized it, trying to compartentalize and deal with it that way. in that way, it would be pretty realistic because if someone does that, it does tend to eat away at them like a cancer if they never address it or let it out. so now she's been boiling over the pain and suffering and potential resentment and killer frost is her lashing out and because her power is fueled by pain, suffering and potential resentment, she's a villain, as julian told cisco, his come from love, etc - which okay, was super cheesy and what? they come from love? his motivation came from love but i'm not sure how his powers do - but moving on....

see, i don't quite understand this. because if you trust someone then you are inclined to help them, no? over simplistic but also somewhat true.

and she could be but the trailer COULD BE misleading of sorts. we know that savitar will lose his memories from an interview done when barry does, so it is possible that the scene of him choking her is when he has no memories of who he is, where he is and where she is. as well as the fact that we don't have any other context for why or when that scene takes place. so while it could be as cut and dry as it seems... it could also be misleading as well.

i don't doubt that he is the dominate personality in the relationship at all. but for all of that he does apparently need her for something, which gives you some sort of leverage, not much, but a little - whether or not he plans on getting rid of her after that point is yet to be determined.

yes, and again no. until we have context for the choke scene - ala the memory loss - i'm not 100% going there, although i'm 90% certain it is somewhat similar to that of zoom, because #parallels.

that being said, as you yourself pointed out, if they are changing the future - present its potentially possible that what killer frost experienced in 2024 and the lead up to that was different than what was going to happen here in our reality of 2017.

since the only interaction we have of them is the one scene where's he upset that tracy got away - which again, makes no sense since he would know that she got away so why's he reading her the riot act and acting surprised? freaking time travel man... - its a bit too early to judge their relationship for me. i do tend to lean towards it being like zoom and his lietunents yes, but i need to see a little interaction more than one scene and a reveal because the other shot of them in the promo seems to indicate some kind of...idk... moment? perhaps not but something happened or was said or idk.... so again, i expect the relationship is more akin to zoom's with his lackey's... but whereas we saw time and time again zoom's lack of compassion, we have not yet seen that completely to that level with her and savitar because if this were zoom, killer frost would already be dead for failing not just once, three times. and we know that for some reason or another, unless she's dying... he doesn't kill her whereas zoom just needed the hint of betrayal to axe off reverb and death storm and killer frost and rupture. so while i do expect its not a healthy relationship - i mean, they're villains, shows don't always tend to show them having positive relationships - i also don't think its quite that bad as zoom's. as i said, she'd already be dead if this were zoom. heck, he was ready to kill caitlain, someone he supposedly cared for, just because she was "too late" in coming over to his side.

no it won't. and again, i need to see more of that dynamic, etc.. too. i wish there was more time to explore savi barry's relationship to everyone and how and why that came to pass. but in three episodes, that obviously is not happening. we'll get iris, potentially joe and apparently killer frost where its not metal man but evil future barry, so hopefully we get some pov and exploration of how and why he feels exactly the way he does.

oh, there is no back and forth with me. by 3x22, cisco will have broken thru or cisco+julian etc... and caitlain will be on the upswing. maybe because savibarry does just act like a dick, who knows.... but because #reasons it'll happen.

i just can't see the show allowing killer frost to continue into season 4. just like they wouldn't allow iris to die or barry to turn evil or be missing in the speed force or cisco to die or lose his hands, etc.

its a well enough gimic where it works for an episode or two or three or it can be teased that it happens on earth two or in some time line in the future... but not exist in the present.


i mean, if you think about it, when they kill / defeat savibarry.. that would also mean that in theory, they are destroying the future in which killer frosts exists. because if there is no savitar, then there is no acoloytes to speak of his plans, etc. and therefore that future really doesn't exist, similar to how it prevents barry from becoming evil, it might have the same effect. sure, she's killer frost now but once caitlain takes control, that future is abolished the same way that barry's is of becoming savitar once he defeats him and iris survives.

all this is is a glorified troll job. they've proven that time and again. they know that snipets of killer frost get a reaction from the fanbase and they pull that rabbit out of their hat from time to time when they want to. i don't think they have ever seen it as a real potential SL arc for the character. its good for a brief run but that's it.

an image of killer frost in the future.
killer frost on another earth.
brief teases of it and then killer frost for one episode in 3x07.
and i think that's why they had her do all the abilities she did this season - because its coming to an end. kind of like the grand finale of a fireworks show, they wanted to make sure people went "cool" or "when did she learn to do that?" before the curtain falls.
and now a little 3-4 episode run that in some ways mirrors the time we know who savitar is.

as i see it, killer frost to the show is the living embodiment of earth two, three, etc... where you can tease it that something happens and people can be like "oh, cool" but you never have to really deliver on it because you can explain that this is your reality and its different here but with different choices, etc... than that could happen. so i'm just going to try to enjoy tonight and maybe next week and then get ready for the return.

at the same time, if killer frost were a dude... he'd probably stick around more.just saying.


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and i'm also convinced the big return in the finale has to be ronnie. especially if there is any chance that she keeps the powers, then firestorm has to come back. its the only thing that makes sense... god help me if its eddie.

as bad as ronnie would be and would put season 4 in jeoparady for me... eddie potentially is worse because after finding out that her current fiance kills her in some future timeline, her once dead fiance returns? pass. that's just a whole lotta pass.... even though it makes no sense at all for him to be alive i would rather it be snart.

well, idk which one would be worse, both are equally bad in bringing back yet again a presumed dead love interest. one might be to add drama to barry/iris while the other is to "save" caitlain. both are just.... ewwww IMHO

FireQueen

My idea is simple. Killer Frost likes and trusts SaviBarry because her saner version likes and trusts Barry. Those are twisted versions of Barry and Caitlin so they could retain the same relationship based on trust regular Barry and Caitlin have. Even if we didn't see many friendship moments it's show canon that the members of Team Flash all like each other. This is my dumb theory, the correct answer is the plot says so.

I hope this moment of reflection is coming. Maybe she listens to Cisco and run, Caitlin, run!

Sure. That too. They should have expanded on it though

Sure but what's in it for her? What does she want and what is she trying to accomplish here? He promised her salvation which means what exactly? That is what I don't get. She trusts him because it's evil Barry but she's helping him because? I get what he wants but not what she wants. If she's just trying to please him that's not a good look imo. It strips her of her agency. Something like "We have the same goal because I want Barry and the team to suffer just as much you do" would work. Like I said in my previous post, she's in it because she seeks revenge.

He won't kill her and maybe you are right that that moment from the promo is misleading but he has verbally abused her already. Even if they won't end up like Zoom and Killer Frost I don't see them like Killer Frost and Deathstorm either. Those were villains but seemed to have a more healthy partnership. My point is that Savitar and Killer Frost are not equals so how can they make one hell of a team? I mean, it could change like you said but for now she's more his lackey than his partner. It's okay because Savitar is the big bad, etc. I just want to understand her perspective.

I don't know if you've seen that spoiler but if Caitlin is back I don't get why she's absent from a certain scene that happens in the finale...

There's a big return in the finale? Snart is back in 3x22 so it can't be him imo. Who knows what they mean with big though? My idea is that it's Earth-2 Wells or Jay Garrick.

We should let Ronnie and Eddie RIP. I was sad when they died but it's been two years, let their poor souls find peace.

bonnie51

yes, that is the correct answer. unless they explain it further - which they likely won't.

perhaps she will... maybe that's what leads to the choke? like i said, there are so many potential factors leading into that shot that is hard to know for sure what is going on.


they definetely could have. they gave her PTSD for a hot minute and then it was gone.

i think simply put, she sees him as = freedom. she knows what the rest of the team flash wants, to put her back in a cage and let caitlain back out, etc.

so i think in some ways its borne out of self preservation. here's someone claiming that he needs her and wants her around versus a group of people who want to put her back in her cage. that's simple enough for motivation... now its not going to be expanded on or explained that way on the show but that's my rationale.

is that savitar seems to have a place for her or use for her... while everyone else wants her to go away and never come back.


i get it..and maybe as with some partnerships, she just sees it as more 50-50 when its really 60-40 or 70-30, etc...

and i don't totally see them as deathstorm / killer frost either. could things have changed in savitar's future where maybe one day it did become more of a true partnership? sure, i guess. but right now it doesn't seem that way... so idk. their relationship and her motivation and what he apparently needs from her are some of the bigger ? i have right now. because right now it just seems like #reasons is why some of it is happening.

i am trying - and somewhat failing but still trying - to not read too many spoilers. if you are speaking of the funeral scene...that is one that i do know about but its possible that she's back but because of the transformation still just appears as killer frost or retains her abilities but caitlain's personality is back in control? if otherwise, then no, i probably have not seen the spoiler you are referencing.


yeah, i read the interview after the last episode thereabouts.

Producer and showrunner Andrew Kreisberg spoke about that possibility to EW recently, saying “We have a couple of recurring villains, one major recurring character [returning].”

The Flash EP Teases Major Character's Return In Season 3 Finale


i mean, villains could be snart and heatwave, etc... basically the rogues. major character imo means more than jay garrick, as i love jws, but he's not a "major" character. wells from e2? i mean, maybe, but then what happens to hr? jessie? i like her well enough but again, she falls short of "major" character.

zoom's black flash so i don't get how he could return. eobard's dead, i undersatand, so that doesn't make sense.

oh god. please not patty. please. PLEASE.


agreed. i just don't trust the show to agree with us.

FireQueen

It's not the funeral scene. That one made me think that Caitlin was back. There's another scene where something big happens and if Caitlin were back, she should have been there with the others imo. I won't spoil you

Thanks Gosh, anyone but Eddie, Ronnie or Patty

bonnie51

thanks. i might end up finding out more as my curiosity gets the better of me, but right now i am trying to stay largely spoiler free.


yeah, problem is... other than those three, who is a major character?

jay- unless jws is back as barry's dad, not really. his mom?

linda was never a really major character but i'd be okay with her returning i guess... what is mj up to?