[Slayerfan714]

Amy, feel free to delete if this thread isn't a good idea. I just know we've been talking a lot about DC on the Bay/Travis thread and I figured maybe this would be a better way to do it?

But if not, no hard feelings!

If it works for everyone, then I guess this is a good place to discuss all couples rather than on their specific threads and maybe we can get more in depth on the comparisons of Dawson/Joey/Pacey and Emmett/Bay/Travis.

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by Slayerfan714 (View Post) Amy, feel free to delete if this thread isn't a good idea. I just know we've been talking a lot about DC on the Bay/Travis thread and I figured maybe this would be a better way to do it? But if not, no hard feelings! If it works for everyone, then I guess this is a good place to discuss all couples rather than on their specific threads and maybe we can get more in depth on the comparisons of Dawson/Joey/Pacey and Emmett/Bay/Travis.

I love it!

I had to go to the grocery store this morning, and I was trying to think of a good way to frame this thread with a title. I hadn't come up with anything yet, so this is GREAT!

Thanks, Alyssa!

I have a question for everyone that sort of fits with this thread title. I was re-watching parts of The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters just now.

There is this great scene, where Bay & Emmett are playing and making out on the front lawn of the Kennish estate, when Simone & Toby appear. Tension is everywhere, because Emmett and Simone both know what they did together, a few days ago, and Bay and Toby are clueless to all of it.

Bay is introducing Emmett to Simone, and I am able to put myself into the mind of each character in that scene. I do sometimes wonder if that is the moment that Emmett figured out Simone & Toby are a couple, or if he already knew. Either way, I understand intimately what Emmett is thinking AND feeling, without any words. And I also understand what Simone is thinking and feeling. I can even put myself into the blissful ignorance of Bay and Toby. It's such an amazing scene.

Can anyone think of any scenes in recent seasons, like that one? A scene where so much is being said through the eyes and body language, but not at all with words.

I can think of one example that comes close in Season 4, but nothing quite to the level of what happened on a consistent basis in Season 1. Usually these are the type of scenes that DO occur when there is a pesky love triangle (or square) present.

Although some of these scenes occur with just one character present, too.

Like that scene where Emmett is putting away his clothes when he moves back into Melody's house, and he is looking at Bay's pictures on his wall, and feeling guilty for having sex with Simone the night before. That was another scene in the same episode. Emmett said nothing and I felt EVERYTHING he was feeling. I could hear Emmett's thoughts.

That is a powerful thing to experience.

Is it the writing, the acting, the directing? What allows viewers to share that kind of moment with a character? I feel we see far fewer of those moments on Switched at Birth these days. Do others agree with me? Or are those moments there? Maybe I am missing them.

Did Dawson's Creek have moments like that? I seem to remember Alyssa referencing a scene in the past where Pacey covers Joey with a blanket and Alyssa said she knew what Pacey was feeling at that moment. Is that right, Alyssa? Or am I remembering wrong?

Scenes like that always blow me away. Season 1 of Switched at Birth was FILLED with them. Remember Bay telling Emmett, "You are the best listener I know." I knew exactly what Emmett was thinking and feeling when he grinned at Bay, even though he didn't say a word. Or remember that moment when our favorite threesome were sitting at The Senator and Bay & Emmett share a look as they both turn away from Daphne to take a sip of their drinks?

I could probably list a thousand moments like that in Season 1, if someone asked me. And I could list a handful in Season 2. But those moments are so few and far between in Season 3 and 4.

Could someone make some Dawson's Creek comparisons for me? Share some scenes with those characters that remind you of scenes with the Swtiched at Birth characters.

Also, could someone address the Buffy comparison to Bay saying "Give me time"? Did Buffy finally "get over" the man that she said that, too? Or did she always keep him in her heart?

[Kassiek]

Haha! Now we can compare DC to SaB and I don't have to feel weird since it has a thread now! So Amy, I told you that Pacey had some elements of both Travis and Emmett. I found a video to help you see what I mean! I still think you should watch DC, though lol. Number 9 is really an Emmett kind of moment. Whereas 2 is more of the Travis moment we saw in the finale. And I know exactly what the blanket scene is referring to and one of my favourites, but it seems youtubers don't appreciate it as much as I do!

I can't wait to dive into this thread when I've had some sleep! All the comparisons will be coming!

[Slayerfan714]

Originally Posted by Amy I love it! I had to go to the grocery store this morning, and I was trying to think of a good way to frame this thread with a title. I hadn't come up with anything yet, so this is GREAT! Thanks, Alyssa!

Oh good! Glad to hear that!!!

Did Dawson's Creek have moments like that? I seem to remember Alyssa referencing a scene in the past where Pacey covers Joey with a blanket and Alyssa said she knew what Pacey was feeling at that moment. Is that right, Alyssa? Or am I remembering that wrong?

Yes, that's right. It's when I felt Pacey's feelings for Joey even though he had yet to express them. If I had to guess, it was him realizing the extent of his feelings, too. Pacey and Joey were always friends, but they bickered and picked on each other, but they always cared about each other. But him falling for her, it surprised him.

Also, could someone address the Buffy comparison to Bay saying "Give me time"? Did Buffy finally "get over" the man that she said that, too? Or did she always keep him in her heart?

I'll address it. She never did. Basically she said that because Angel, he was a vampire cursed with a soul by gypsies. Before that, he was Angelus, vicious and terrifying and without mercy. But then he got cursed and stopped feeding on people due to the guilt and wanted to atone.



Buffy being the slayer tried to stay away from Angel, and him with her, but they couldn't fight their feelings and fell in love. Unbeknownst to them, the loophole in Angel's curse was if he experienced a true moment of happiness, he would lose his soul.

On the eve of Buffy's 17th birthday, they consummated their relationship and it was Buffy's first time. Angel lost his soul and became Angelus again, intent on destroying Buffy and the world.

It was a two-part episode that transitioned the show from Monday's to Tuesday's on the old WB.

So in the second part, everyone finds out Angel lost his soul. There's a physical fight between Buffy and Angel and he's pretty mean, using their sex as a way to hurt her, saying he only pretended to love her, etc. Buffy is prepared to stake Angel and he taunts her and says "You can't do it. You can't kill me."

So she kicks him in his private place ahem and says "give me time."

Obviously it's different since Angel and Buffy are meant to be enemies and if he had stayed evil, she would have needed to kill him (he did get his soul back at the end of the season.)

But Buffy and Angel are still in love (not together) by the end of the series. There's a comic book series that I haven't followed but basically you know they are star crossed. They'll always be in love but will they be together? You don't know.

[AnneH]

oh man, 'Becoming Pt. 2' was such a great episode.

i haven't read any of the post season 7 comics, but i read a synopsis once and no ty.

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by Slayerfan714 (View Post) I'll address it. She never did. Basically she said that because Angel, he was a vampire cursed with a soul by gypsies. Before that, he was Angelus, vicious and terrifying and without mercy. But then he got cursed and stopped feeding on people due to the guilt and wanted to atone. Buffy being the slayer tried to stay away from Angel, and him with her, but they couldn't fight their feelings and fell in love. Unbeknownst to them, the loophole in Angel's curse was if he experienced a true moment of happiness, he would lose his soul. On the eve of Buffy's 17th birthday, they consummated their relationship and it was Buffy's first time. Angel lost his soul and became Angelus again, intent on destroying Buffy and the world. It was a two-part episode that transitioned the show from Monday's to Tuesday's on the old WB. So in the second part, everyone finds out Angel lost his soul. There's a physical fight between Buffy and Angel and he's pretty mean, using their sex as a way to hurt her, saying he only pretended to love her, etc. Buffy is prepared to stake Angel and he taunts her and says "You can't do it. You can't kill me." So she kicks him in his private place ahem and says "give me time." Obviously it's different since Angel and Buffy are meant to be enemies and if he had stayed evil, she would have needed to kill him (he did get his soul back at the end of the season.) But Buffy and Angel are still in love (not together) by the end of the series. There's a comic book series that I haven't followed but basically you know they are star crossed. They'll always be in love but will they be together? You don't know.

Ah, so Buffy & Angel remind me of a line in The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters, when Emmett says, "She has to kill him. The cure is lame."

Of course, a year later, when Bay & Emmett watch the movie together at Maui, Emmett had changed the ending so that Bay does save him. The cure wasn't so lame to Emmett, after all.

I wonder if that is what the writers are going for on Switched at Birth, Bay & Emmett still in love, but not together, just like Buffy and Angel, when the series draws to a close.

That's the way the writers left the Season 4 Finale, and they knew that episode might be the end of their story.

Now, that I think about it, yes, I do believe the writers' goal is to end Bay & Emmett's story with them loving each other, but not together. It makes more sense than the "happily ever after" ending that doesn't really fit with the tone of the show. And from the beginning, Lizzy Weiss has always asserted that Bay & Emmett are star-crossed.

Here's a definition of star-crossed from Wikipedia:

"Star-crossed" or "star-crossed lovers" is a phrase describing a pair of lovers whose relationship is often thwarted by outside forces. The term encompasses other meanings, but originally means the pairing is being "thwarted by a malign star" or that the stars are working against the relationship. Astrological in origin, the phrase stems from the belief that the positions of the stars ruled over people's fates, and is best known from the play Romeo and Juliet by the Elizabethan playwright William Shakespeare. Such pairings are often said to be doomed from the start.

The phrase was coined in the prologue of Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet:

From forth the fatal loins of these two foes,

A pair of star-cross'd lovers take their life (5–6).

It also refers to destiny and the inevitability of the two characters' paths crossing. It usually but not always refers to unlucky outcomes, since Romeo and Juliet's affair ended tragically. Further, it connotes that the lovers entered into their union without sufficient forethought or preparation; that the lovers may not have had adequate knowledge of each other or that they were not thinking rationally.

Prime time has had various star-crossed lovers labeled as notable and "unforgettable" love stories. IGN considers Buffy Summers and Angel from "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" to be one of the genre's most tragic and notable star-crossed pairings. The Doctor bidding farewell to his companion Rose Tyler in "Doctor Who" has been named one of the greatest love scenes in science fiction. Cole Turner and Phoebe Halliwell from "Charmed," Michael and Nikita from "La Femme Nikita," Kara Thrace and Lee Adama from "Battlestar Galactica," Clark Kent and Lana Lang from "Smallville," and Lucas Scott and Peyton Sawyer from "One Tree Hill" are other star-crossed couples from the genre.

With film or within modern novels and books, such star-crossed couples as Jack Dawson and Rose DeWitt Bukater from "Titanic," Landon Carter and Jamie Sullivan from "A Walk to Remember", Anakin Skywalker and Padmé Amidala from the "Star Wars" saga, Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist from "Brokeback Mountain," and Jake and Neytiri from "Avatar" have been included. In "The Hunger Games," Katniss Everdeen and Peeta Mellark are often called "The Star Crossed Lovers from District 12" because of their romance while in the Hunger Games, where only one can survive. Hazel Grace Lancaster and Augustus Waters in "The Fault in Our Stars" are another example.

I have never seen any of those TV series. Did any of the love stories end happily?

I know how the loves stories of "Titanic," "Star Wars," and "The Fault in Our Stars" end. Do any of those other movies include a happy ending for their lovers? I'm guessing probably not, but it would be nice to know of one star-crossed pair that DID have a happy ending, especially since the Wikipedia entry says that it IS possible.

I often think Bay & Emmett didn't know each other well enough, when they first entered their union, or even again, when they entered their union a second time. I mostly believe that because the switch caused them to not share a common language or culture, and I believe that is difficult to overcome. As hard as both of them have worked to fit into the other's culture, there is still a gap.

I do love that Bay went to a Deaf school, and now, Emmett is going to a hearing one.

Some people think Emmett lost his soul in Season 4.

I could look at it either way. If Bay was raped, then yes, most definitely, Emmett lost his soul to abandon her at that moment. But if Bay cheated on Emmett, then, his needing time to heal doesn't seem so bad. I mean, when Emmett thought Bay was raped, he was fully prepared to quit school to be with her. That doesn't sound like someone who is a devil. It's only after Bay tried to explain what happened that Emmett needed time. Even at the end, Emmett was saying that maybe in a couple of years they could get back together.

And it's not like Emmett ever called Bay a name, in the way I heard Eli called Claire a name on Degrassi. Emmett never said their sex didn't mean anything to him, in the way that Angel did to Buffy.

Emmett said he meant every word and promise he ever made to Bay.

To me, it doesn't seem as though the writers are painting Emmett to be a despicable person. Does it to anyone else?

And yet, someone named Shanna posted this message to the official Facebook page for Switched at Birth yesterday:

I didn't anticipate pulling an all-nighter... over winter BREAK. 6:08 am. I just binge-watched 15 episodes of "Switched at Birth." (And these are legit episodes at 42 minutes a pop, so... 10.5 hours. Huzzah!) I originally just wanted to watch the episodes featuring Russell Harvard, and Nyle DiMarco. But those episodes happened in the middle of an incredible story-line, so I had to go back to episode 4 when that plot was set on its course, and I was immediately captivated. Mesmerized. Engaged. Involved. This show impressed me so much. It tackles a lot of complex, controversial issues: race and white privilege, gender roles, male privilege, class privilege, body image and sizeism, consent, sexual assault, human rights, audism* and hearing privilege, language access, Deaf Culture, ableism, the list goes on and on. I was so enthralled, the time flew by in an instant. I'm not certain that every single one of these issues were represented and handled perfectly. Some of the ways in which certain characters handled some scenarios were disheartening, and sometimes even downright offensive. (Of course, at times, that was the point.) I've never been so enraged and disappointed by a character than I was by Emmett, {Sean Berdy}. I hated Emmett more than I hated Walter White when he was at his very worst. Still, I'm thrilled because (A) these complex, multi-faceted topics are being discussed and represented in ways that are thoughtful, thought provoking, and respectful, more often than not, (B) even if there were a few short comings, I think it's better for a show to take bold risks and often succeed, (and sometimes flounder or fall-short,) rather than always "play it safe" and stick to tried-and-true, formulaic and predictable scripts, and-- (C) the show got me to further challenge and analyze my own thoughts and perspectives, hopefully leading me to become a more educated, more aware, and more compassionate earthling. I was especially impressed by the story lines and acting of Vanessa Marano this season. Damn. She brought her A-game. Switched at Birth for the win. I want to watch the whole season again. *AUDISM: The notion that one is superior based on one's ability to hear or to behave in the manner of one who hears, or that life without hearing is futile and miserable, or an attitude based on pathological thinking which results in a negative stigma toward anyone who does not hear. PS. Fun fact: my computer recognizes the word "ableism," but puts a red squiggly line under the word "audism" and suggests I change it to either "autism" or "nudism." If my laptop doesn't even recognize audism as a real word, I know for sure there is work to be done.

So the hatred for Emmett rages on with fans far and wide. I'm still encountering it everywhere I go in social media. Every so often, I am convinced by them. I decide they're correct, and Emmett was written to be an awful, despicable human being.

But, to me, that doesn't ring true for longer than a few days.

Could someone who watched Dawson's Creek tell me about the hatred for Dawson? It was only because he was obnoxious, right? He never did anything bad. He was just stuck on himself. Right?

How does that compare to the hatred for Emmett? I'm envisioning that the hatred people felt for Emmett when he was wearing his douche beanie and bailing on Travis is the hatred most people felt for Dawson. Is that correct?

That's pretty tame compared to the hatred people felt for Emmett, when he broke up with Bay. Although sometimes I look at it, and I do not even think Emmett DID break up with Bay. He asked her not to move to LA, which seemed wise considering the state of their relationship. And I do believe that Emmett wanted his freedom and wanted to date Skye. It seems he needed that.

But part of me believes if Bay had agreed to continue a long-distance relationship that Emmett would have just focused on school and tried not to date anyone, at least for a while. That would not have lasted, though.

From what I have seen and heard, Dawson never did anything really bad to Joey. Nothing like Emmett breaking up with Bay, right?

Dawson never cheated on Joey. He never made promises of forever, only to break them. The worst Dawson did was not choose Joey, when she wanted to be with him. And then, of course, stupidly tell Pacey to look out for her.

I'm still wondering about these questions, too!

• Can anyone think of any scenes in recent seasons of Switched at Birth, where so much is being said through the eyes and body language, but not at all with words.
  
• What allows viewers to share that kind of moment with a character? Do you think it is mostly the writing, the acting, or the directing that allows viewers to enjoy those moments? I feel we see far fewer of those moments on Switched at Birth these days. Do others agree? Or am I missing what's there?
  
• Could someone make some Dawson's Creek comparisons? Share some scenes with those characters that remind you of similar scenes with the Switched at Birth characters.

[Slayerfan714]

For me, Buffy and Angel were much more complicated than Bay and Emmett. At the end of season two, Buffy does "kill" Angel because he (while still being Angelus) basically opens up the mouth of hell and the only way to stop it from sucking the whole world into hell is Angel's blood. So, right before she goes to kill him, her best friend Willow is able to curse him again, but Willow is in the hospital as she is doing this and Buffy has no idea. His soul is returned but she doesn't have a choice. And, to make it even more traumatic (and even dramatic) Angel doesn't remember what happened since Buffy's birthday i.e. him going bad and killing people again.

Anyway, the end of season two ends with Buffy sending Angel to hell and her running away to deal with the fallout.

Season three Angel returns and him and Buffy get back together for a bit. Angel breaks up with her because she can never have a normal life with him. I should state Angel is 244 years old to Buffy's 17/18 years. He's not a teenager. And well, he's dead technically. He can't go out into the sunlight with her because sun burns vampires and because of his curse, they can't have sex. That causes Angel to leave Buffy as he wants her to experience a normal life or as normal a life she can as a vampire slayer.

The character left because he was getting his own spin-off.

I think when TV characters are deemed "star-crossed lovers" it falls into two categories. One, which is more like Romeo and Juliet I suppose where the universe really appears to be conspiring to keep these two characters apart, and then the second category where it's a difficult relationship but more so on the part of the writers. Bay and Emmett suffer from a showrunner not letting them communicate and who is constantly throwing them into contrived situations. Whereas with Buffy and Angel, it's not just a difficult relationship, but semi-impossible. He literally can't be with her in the daytime, can't procreate (although Angel the show did some retconning there that I won't even go into because what BS!) and can't be intimate with Buffy. Plus, there's a huge age difference. I'm not sure how believable it would have been for Buffy to have ended up with Angel, at least, without experiencing other sexual relationships. As much as Buffy claimed she didn't want it, Angel thought she'd end up resenting him. And as someone who had lived for over 240 years, he had experiences Buffy hadn't.

Actually, that's what makes their confrontation in "Innocence," so painful. Buffy doesn't know Angel has turned yet. She thinks he's just being a callus jerk. She says their night together is a big deal and he responds, "C'mon Buffy. It's not like I haven't been there before."

I'll link the scene if you want to watch. Start at around the 1:50 mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBsb4Qfy_so

I was only twelve when I started watching BTVS and I was never a big Bangel fan. I don't know why. I guess even at that age they seemed too tragic. Plus, Joss Whedon doesn't let any character - let alone couple - on his shows be happy. Seriously. Don't get attached to any characters if you ever find yourself watching a JW show. Dude is a sadist.

Anyway, yeah, I guess I see Bay and Emmett as less tragic. I think with Bay & Emmett it would be tragic that they had the potential to be amazing and instead it was squandered by manufactured drama that has nothing to do with them not being able to know each other a certain way. I can't explain myself easily for some reason. I think I see Buffy/Angel as realistic for staying apart whereas Bay and Emmett don't need to. If they had writers not intent on doing whatever they were doing, they could make it work, despite everything. Or rather they could have made it work. For Buffy? I don't think Joss could have done anything. Even if Angel wasn't cursed, he was still immortal and she was mortal. She would die eventually. He wouldn't. Not to mention, I think the trope for the hero/heroine is they are always supposed to end up alone as they have the weight of the worlds on their shoulders.

As far as the other couples, Peyton and Lucas from "One Tree Hill" ended up together. The Doctor and Rose were never together because he's the Doctor and immortal, but he was definitely in love with her and she with him. But I don't think they've ever given the Doctor a love interest. The show isn't really about that. I never watched "Battlestar Gallactica" so I can't comment there. Cole and Phoebe no. Lana and Clark no. Michael and Nikita, I didn't watch.

Ennis and Jack, no. Landon and Jamie, sort of. They probably had the happiest of endings, but it's complicated.

Dawson never cheated on Joey, but when they finally do sleep together, she finds out he had a girlfriend back in LA or something like that. I was barely watching at that point.

I think a lot of the Dawson hatred comes from people preferring Pacey and the fallout from the Dawson-Joey-Pacey triangle. It got ugly at the end of season three.

People saw that Pacey was an underdog and was more likable than Dawson at times. Pacey had a more difficult life. He was pretty much emotionally and verbally abused by his family. Everyone wrote him off as the town loser. He was involved in a sexual relationship with his teacher when he was fifteen and I hate that the show didn't address that beyond presenting it as a romantic relationship. Sorry, no, but at fifteen, Pacey was a minor and not even at the age of consent. I can't get beyond that. Gross.

Meanwhile, Dawson was a good student, had two loving parents, a decent home life. Even though his parents had marital problems, they didn't berate him the way Pacey's family did.

And I think most people viewed Dawson as arrogant. Almost as though he had a claim over Joey.

There's one line that to me shows how cold and cruel Dawson can be. Granted it was after he finds out about "the betrayal" of Joey-Pacey (even though Joey and Dawson were broken up) he says to Pacey, "You're only interested in girls you can save or screw. Right, Pace?"

I don't know though. I go back and forth over P/J now as an adult and I'm not sure how great their relationship was either. So maybe ten years from now I'll see Bay & Emmett differently too.

[~AnastasiaGrey~]

So what are we discussing in this thread?

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by ~TwilighterTee~ (View Post) So what are we discussing in this thread?

We are discussing love triangles, squares, and other configurations and how they compare and contrast to other shows!

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by Slayerfan714 (View Post) For me, Buffy and Angel were much more complicated than Bay and Emmett. At the end of season two, Buffy does "kill" Angel because he (while still being Angelus) basically opens up the mouth of hell and the only way to stop it from sucking the whole world into hell is Angel's blood. So, right before she goes to kill him, her best friend Willow is able to curse him again, but Willow is in the hospital as she is doing this and Buffy has no idea. His soul is returned but she doesn't have a choice. And, to make it even more traumatic (and even dramatic) Angel doesn't remember what happened since Buffy's birthday i.e. him going bad and killing people again. Anyway, the end of season two ends with Buffy sending Angel to hell and her running away to deal with the fallout. Season three Angel returns and him and Buffy get back together for a bit. Angel breaks up with her because she can never have a normal life with him. I should state Angel is 244 years old to Buffy's 17/18 years. He's not a teenager. And well, he's dead technically. He can't go out into the sunlight with her because sun burns vampires and because of his curse, they can't have sex. That causes Angel to leave Buffy as he wants her to experience a normal life or as normal a life she can as a vampire slayer. The character left because he was getting his own spin-off. I think when TV characters are deemed "star-crossed lovers" it falls into two categories. One, which is more like Romeo and Juliet I suppose where the universe really appears to be conspiring to keep these two characters apart, and then the second category where it's a difficult relationship but more so on the part of the writers. Bay and Emmett suffer from a showrunner not letting them communicate and who is constantly throwing them into contrived situations. Whereas with Buffy and Angel, it's not just a difficult relationship, but semi-impossible. He literally can't be with her in the daytime, can't procreate (although Angel the show did some retconning there that I won't even go into because what BS!) and can't be intimate with Buffy. Plus, there's a huge age difference. I'm not sure how believable it would have been for Buffy to have ended up with Angel, at least, without experiencing other sexual relationships. As much as Buffy claimed she didn't want it, Angel thought she'd end up resenting him. And as someone who had lived for over 240 years, he had experiences Buffy hadn't. Actually, that's what makes their confrontation in "Innocence," so painful. Buffy doesn't know Angel has turned yet. She thinks he's just being a callus jerk. She says their night together is a big deal and he responds, "C'mon Buffy. It's not like I haven't been there before." I'll link the scene if you want to watch. Start at around the 1:50 mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBsb4Qfy_so I was only twelve when I started watching BTVS and I was never a big Bangel fan. I don't know why. I guess even at that age they seemed too tragic. Plus, Joss Whedon doesn't let any character - let alone couple - on his shows be happy. Seriously. Don't get attached to any characters if you ever find yourself watching a JW show. Dude is a sadist. Anyway, yeah, I guess I see Bay and Emmett as less tragic. I think with Bay & Emmett it would be tragic that they had the potential to be amazing and instead it was squandered by manufactured drama that has nothing to do with them not being able to know each other a certain way. I can't explain myself easily for some reason. I think I see Buffy/Angel as realistic for staying apart whereas Bay and Emmett don't need to. If they had writers not intent on doing whatever they were doing, they could make it work, despite everything. Or rather they could have made it work. For Buffy? I don't think Joss could have done anything. Even if Angel wasn't cursed, he was still immortal and she was mortal. She would die eventually. He wouldn't. Not to mention, I think the trope for the hero/heroine is they are always supposed to end up alone as they have the weight of the worlds on their shoulders. As far as the other couples, Peyton and Lucas from "One Tree Hill" ended up together. The Doctor and Rose were never together because he's the Doctor and immortal, but he was definitely in love with her and she with him. But I don't think they've ever given the Doctor a love interest. The show isn't really about that. I never watched "Battlestar Gallactica" so I can't comment there. Cole and Phoebe no. Lana and Clark no. Michael and Nikita, I didn't watch. Ennis and Jack, no. Landon and Jamie, sort of. They probably had the happiest of endings, but it's complicated.

All of that is fascinating! Thanks, Alyssa!

Originally Posted by Slayerfan714 (View Post) Dawson never cheated on Joey, but when they finally do sleep together, she finds out he had a girlfriend back in LA or something like that. I was barely watching at that point.

Does Joey lose her virginity to Dawson? Or had she already lost it to Pacey or someone else?

Originally Posted by Slayerfan714 (View Post) I think a lot of the Dawson hatred comes from people preferring Pacey and the fallout from the Dawson-Joey-Pacey triangle. It got ugly at the end of season three. People saw that Pacey was an underdog and was more likable than Dawson at times. Pacey had a more difficult life. He was pretty much emotionally and verbally abused by his family. Everyone wrote him off as the town loser. He was involved in a sexual relationship with his teacher when he was fifteen and I hate that the show didn't address that beyond presenting it as a romantic relationship. Sorry, no, but at fifteen, Pacey was a minor and not even at the age of consent. I can't get beyond that. Gross. Meanwhile, Dawson was a good student, had two loving parents, a decent home life. Even though his parents had marital problems, they didn't berate him the way Pacey's family did. And I think most people viewed Dawson as arrogant. Almost as though he had a claim over Joey. There's one line that to me shows how cold and cruel Dawson can be. Granted it was after he finds out about "the betrayal" of Joey-Pacey (even though Joey and Dawson were broken up) he says to Pacey, "You're only interested in girls you can save or screw. Right, Pace?"

I'm glad that Dawson was cold and cruel to Pacey, rather than Joey. I always envisioned Dawson as one of those shallow, obnoxious producers in LA, with a bit of narcissism. I never envisioned him really hateful to someone he loves.

I'm guessing Dawson didn't love Pacey as a friend.

Originally Posted by Slayerfan714 (View Post) I don't know though. I go back and forth over P/J now as an adult and I'm not sure how great their relationship was either. So maybe ten years from now I'll see Bay & Emmett differently too.

Well, not that it is any sort of guarantee, but I am almost twenty years older, and I see Bay & Emmett as beautiful together.

I wonder how I would see Pacey and Joey, if I watched the show. For some reason, without even watching it, I don't like them. But maybe I would, if I did watch.

[Kassiek]

Originally Posted by ollibear (View Post) Does Joey lose her virginity to Dawson? Or had she already lost it to Pacey or someone else?

She lost it to Pacey although she lied about it first to Dawson who straight out asked if she and Pacey had sex. And she let him believe what he wanted for awhile at the beginning and then after she had actually done it she said no. It was ridiculous and ruined all that was perfect about her and Pacey's moment.

Originally Posted by ollibear (View Post) I'm glad that Dawson was cold and cruel to Pacey, rather than Joey. I always envisioned Dawson as one of those shallow, obnoxious producers in LA, with a bit of narcissism. I never envisioned him really hateful to someone he loves. I'm guessing Dawson didn't love Pacey as a friend.

Oh he was cruel to Joey a whole bunch of times. When he blamed her for her father's death. When he said he wanted to be with her and then had to go and tell her they couldn't be together. When he repeatedly told her not to follow her dreams and stay with him. But especially when he found out about them. He starts in on a tirade directed at Joey with "The two people I trusted most were lying to me. Were you bored, or confused, or just malicious?" Like them falling in love was a personal affront against him. When she goes after him and says that things are complicated and that he basically needs to step back, he puts all the blame on her for him not being able to deal with it. Dawson then tells her they have no friendship (which of course he can't stick with because he wants to win her from Pacey). He then repeatedly asks her to choose between him and Pacey and proceeds to be awful and resentful.

The terrible thing was that Dawson did love Pacey as his best friend. It was just at the end of the day, the only man he was ever afraid might actually take away Joey was Pacey. And that's what Pacey did. He was so spiteful and angry about it for years because he truly loved Pacey but couldn't put his own selfishness away to try and be happy for the two of them because if he did that then he knew he would lose Joey.

Originally Posted by ollibear (View Post) I wonder how I would see Pacey and Joey, if I watched the show. For some reason, without even watching it, I don't like them. But maybe I would, if I did watch.

I think you might like them. It was heartbreaking to watch them go through everything they went through. And Pacey really loved her so much, only wanting the best for her and she wanted to make him a better person. Which she did of course. The thing was, they had a young relationship and yet they kept going back to each other.



As for Dawson, I always hated him from day one. He was so wishy-washy.

And for the plot line with the teacher (Tamara), they did have that go to the court system and have her leave town quickly. She did come back in season 2 for some closure. The show also had the great storylines on mental health, especially when Andy had her breakdown.

[~AnastasiaGrey~]

I don't know I dont mind Dawson. I just wish they didnt do the triangle it ruined their friendship especially pacey and Dawson because it was never the same after that.

[Kassiek]

That's true. And it looks like they're gearing up for that in SaB between Emmett and Pacey.

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by Kassiek (View Post) That's true. And it looks like they're gearing up for that in SaB between Emmett and Pacey.

Do you mean Emmett and Travis?

To me, Emmett and Travis never had much of a friendship anyway. They are too different. Emmett didn't like Travis, when they were in school together. He only suggested that Travis come to live with them, because Daphne told him that Travis's family was horrible to him.

And then, once Travis moved in with the Bledsoe family, he and Emmett hung out together, but they had different interests. Travis wanted to party and make out with women, and Emmett wanted to moon over Bay.

Even once Emmett did move on with Mandy, he still wasn't close to Travis. I remember the scene where Travis is lifting weights, as Emmett talks about the romantic spot he has chosen to meet Mandy. And Travis is the one who advised Emmett to keep quiet about Matthew slashing the tires. They don't have the basis for a strong friendship, in the way that Daphne and Emmett do.

I know that everyone hated Emmett for blowing off Travis when he visited LA, but I stand by my opinion that Travis was the one in the wrong.

If Emmett had returned home to catch a football game with Travis, and a major league recruiter was rumored to be at an event, Emmett would have never begrudged Travis for blowing off their plans to meet with the recruiter. Emmett would have understood. I can understand Travis being bummed about what happened, but it wasn't a reason to give Emmett the cold shoulder as he was leaving.

I really think Travis WANTED to have a falling out with Emmett, so he could feel better about himself for going after Bay. To me, Travis seemed to start having feelings for Bay from the moment he comforted Bay, after they met at the bar in To Repel Ghosts.

[Kassiek]

Originally Posted by ollibear (View Post) Do you mean Emmett and Travis?

I did...I need to stop posting at odd hours. Sorry lol.

I agree that they never had much of a friendship, in fact I've said it before here. But the writers suddenly tried to build it up so that they could add this in. Which didn't ring true to me. In fact, I thought it was strange that Travis went out to LA to visit Emmett at all. As for the party incident, I have mixed feelings but lean towards the main fault lies with Emmett. It's fine and understandable that Emmett wanted to stay. The problem was he didn't communicate with Travis and kept asking him to wait. He should have instead told Travis to go ahead, since Travis had been waiting to go to this game for a year. Not only that, but he left him with no one that knew sign in a party where he didn't have a shared interest with people. That was absolutely rude and inconsiderate.