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As I said, I don't believe Bay thought about taking the fall for Daphne the entire day, I think it was a split-second decision. Or maybe not quite that fast, but I don't think she had time to talk to Emmett. I get why he was mad, I might react the same way, although I'd try to understand why she did it. But I think it's fitting her Bay's character, helping the underdog. I think it was foolish, but I can see why she did it. But Bay needs to see that she's important, too. Quote:
I don't mean to sound like I hate him. I don't. He's just not one of my favorite characters on SaB. He's never been my favorite, even in the beginning, but lately I just do not like him. |
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At the point Bay and Emmett graduated high school, I saw them as a "family" because they were moving 2000 miles away to live together. To me, Bay's plans with Emmett should have come before Daphne. But if Bay didn't want that kind of commitment with Emmett (and I guess, in all honesty, Bay didn't want that kind of commitment with Emmett), then putting Daphne first doesn't have anything to do with Emmett. Bay still shouldn't have done it, though, because she betrayed herself. Quote:
He seemed scared for her. He seemed hurt that she deserted their plans. Later, when he showed her the second timeline, and he was preparing to leave her, I will say he appeared frustrated with her decision. But I never sensed any anger from Emmett directed at anyone but Daphne, and in my mind, Daphne deserved it. Allowing Bay to take the fall for her crimes was an INCREDIBLY selfish thing for Daphne to do. I'm glad both Toby and Emmett expressed their anger at her for that. I sure do hope Bay sees that she's important, too, this summer. Quote:
And Emmett refused to cheat on Bay with Skye. He stopped that kiss immediately. So how do you feel about Bay cheating on Tank with Emmett? And how do you feel about Bay cheating on Emmett with Tank? * What makes Bay more mature than Emmett in your mind? * I don't believe Bay was raped. But even if a person does believe Bay was raped, Bay most definitely emotionally cheated on Emmett with Tank. |
Disclaimer: I have not watched the season four episodes since they aired and my memory is very bad. And I also need to rematch the entire series ASAP. But that's a given, this show is great. :)
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I'm glad Toby and Emmett were mad at her, and I wish more characters would be angry with her, too. Like oh I don't know, John. Girl gets off way too easy. Quote:
And also, his line about how "relationships should just work" didn't help. It shouldn't be fighting all the time, true, but adults work at their relationships. I couldn't help but think that Bay looked crushed after her and Emmett ended things and he looked like he had much better things to do, maybe that's my opinion. Quote:
I see what happened with Tank as rape and personally do not see that as her cheating on Emmett. From the flashbacks, she was way too out of it to give consent. To me, cheating is a conscious decision, and I don't see that decision in her deciding to sleep with Tank. But again, Tank had also been drinking (although he didn't seem as out of it as Bay) so it's not all black and white. |
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I'm so glad you've joined our discussions here! You have helped me figure out my thoughts. I've really struggled with all of these conflicting feelings after Season 4A. It was such a tough season to get through emotionally. Thank you! :flowers: Quote:
I just never thought Bay really wanted to go to LA with Emmett. To me, if she did want to go, nothing would have stopped her. All along, I believe Bay expected her parents or her financial situation would keep her in KC. Then, when neither of those things stopped her from going, Bay quickly found another way to postpone the move (Daphne). I do wonder why Bay pushed Emmett so hard to go to LA, even before she made the decision to join him. Maybe it is just because she thought it would be a good fit for him. I don't think Bay was really happy with their relationship the second time. She definitely took Emmett for granted and treated their connection rather cavalierly. Perhaps Emmett made the mistake of being at Bay's beck and call for so long that she failed to properly appreciate him. That would be understandable, with the way he made himself subservient to her, after his cheating. For a long time, I have been thinking that Bay was too scared to go to LA with Emmett. There's this huge part of me, even now, that really believes Bay is 100% relieved to be off the hook and not need to go to LA. Sure, she is hurt. She has mixed feelings about it. But there's this part of me that believes Bay is glad Emmett made this decision, because she wasn't ready to make the move. I even think we will see her character express gratitude to Emmett, one day, for that. There's this line, when Emmett returns for his surprise visit, and he tells Bay, "You broke our plans once, what is to say you won't break them again?" To me, that line says a lot. Emmett realized that it wasn't Daphne. If Bay really wanted to go to LA with him, nothing would have stopped her. In Emmett's mind, Bay didn't want to go. And although Bay had conflicting feelings, ultimately, I think Emmett is right. Quote:
I'm glad that you saw Bay's shocked look, too. I completely saw that. I wish more people would have seen it. I don't think Bay thought Daphne would go along with her. It's such a betrayal of their friendship that Daphne did. Quote:
He should have talked to her about it first, though. I'm glad he apologized for that. That "personal" line sure does illustrate how far apart they both are. Emmett didn't share anything about his decision with Bay, because by that point, the two of them were not sharing anything at all. I didn't get the impression that Emmett mentioned the word rape in the movie. Most shorts average five minutes in length. Emmett started his story with the day the couple first meet on the beach. He ended it with the man questioning if the woman cheated on him, because she never got over his sleeping with "Sierra" so long ago. I don't see this short as being one that delved into Bay's personal story with Tank. I know Bay felt as though Emmett had invaded her privacy and shared her story, and Emmett DID betray the intimacy he once shared with Bay, by putting their story out there. But to me, that story is so generic, that I just don't see it as being something anyone would associate with Bay, other than Bay. (And Skye, but only because Emmett confided all of the other details to Skye. But that's no different than Bay sharing her intimacies with Tank.) Both Bay and Emmett have betrayed their intimacy with each other for a long time now. Bay started the betrayal, by sharing personal information with Tank, and Emmett continued it by opening up to Skye. Quote:
"But we shouldn't have to try to make it work." It's interesting. It didn't bother me, because I took his words to mean "we shouldn't have to force our relationship to work" which sounded reasonable, in my opinion. But if people interpreted the line to mean that we shouldn't have to work on our relationship, then they must have thought Emmett had gone stark raving mad, because of course, relationships require work. I do find it interesting that in the opening episode of Season 3B, Bay told Daphne, "Tank and I never really clicked like that. I kept trying to make it work, and it never did." So on some level, Bay has to understand that a person can try and try and try to make a relationship work, and sometimes, two people just don't click. To me, that's what Emmett was saying to Bay on the beach. He was saying that they have been trying to make it work for the last year, and they just haven't been clicking. Quote:
Emmett has found his niche in film school. He is really happy and able to totally throw himself into this art form that fascinates and compels him. Plus, he has found a woman, in Skye, who makes him feel wonderful and shares the same interests with him. Emmett has all of his needs met, and Bay is returning home to KC, as a convicted felon with no plans for school, no job, few friends. Bay needs to make some better choices for herself. Quote:
Society does not let intoxicated people off the hook for any other choices that they make while drunk, so I do not understand why society would absolve people for this choice. But over the course of human history, there have been many bad laws written. It shouldn't surprise me. If you believe the law is a good one, then we will just have to agree to disagree. You shared how you feel about Bay and Tank's sexual encounter, but how do you feel about my other questions?
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But when the episodes were actually airing, I thought for sure she was going to go with Emmett. Quote:
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I don't think Bay should have cheated on Tank with Emmett, it was so wrong. I know she didn't go to meet him in the field and plan to have sex, but it's still wrong. IMO, she should have stopped it, broke up with Tank, then slept with Emmett. I like that she felt guilty for cheating on Tank with Emmett, I felt like he was all "we're meant to be" and stuff, and that doesn't fly. I personally put physically cheating on someone above emotionally cheating. But I also think what she did with Tank is wrong, sharing all the information like that. Her and Emmett hadn't been getting along for awhile, and I'm sure she thought of Tank as a friend and friends tell each other things. But Tank is her ex, one who still had feelings for her. I think the whole bed and stars thing could be attributed to her drinking, I don't see that scene happening if she were sober. Did Tank comforting her while she's in his lap happen at the party, too? If Bay had been talking to someone who wasn't her ex, say Daphne, would you still see it as emotionally cheating on Emmett? |
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This episode, It Isn't What You Think, certainly sets the ball rolling down an awful path for Bay. This episode includes several pivotal moments:
This episode is when everything turned. Quote:
But if Bay had truly wanted to go with Emmett, she would have gone. She wouldn't have let Daphne, or anything, stand in her way. A part of Bay must not have been ready to leave her home and family just yet. She must not have been ready to make that kind of complete commitment to Emmett. It's understandable, she just turned 19. I don't think Bay would have felt a need to be the one to step in and take the fall for Daphne, if Bay had been ready to let her family go. If Bay had been ready to start her own family with Emmett, then she would not have felt a need to be the one to rescue Daphne. Bay would have let someone else tend to Daphne. Quote:
Emmett certainly seems to have found something he loves doing. He seems completely fulfilled throwing himself into that world. I think back to Emmett's desire to drop out of high school, during their sophomore year, and his claim, to Bay, that he didn't need to study. I remember Bay's words to Emmett: Maybe because that's how you graduate, so you can go to college and you can work somewhere other than a mini-mart, while you wait for your photography career to take off.Now, Emmett has graduated high school. He has been accepted by two prestigious universities. He is attending one of the best film schools in the entire country, USC, and he is rocking it, even as a freshman. Plus, film is absolutely his passion. And Bay has graduated high school, but then, she made an awful decision. Bay spent the last year serving a sentence for Daphne's crimes. She was rejected by Pratt. Bay hasn't applied to any other colleges, and all applications, whether for school or employment, ask about a criminal record. I don't want Bay to end up working at a mini-mart, for the rest of her life. One day, I really hope Bay says to Daphne, "You should not have allowed me to take the fall for you." And even more importantly, I hope, one day, Bay realizes she should not have offered to take the fall for Daphne. Quote:
Emmett's cheating caused a lot of problems for them. I really believe that the reason Bay & Emmett did not have a good connection during their second relationship is because Bay still could not get past Emmett's cheating, not completely. I believe that is why Bay did not trust Emmett enough to share anything private or intimate with him over the last year. I believe that is why she looked for other causes to put before him, because she didn't want to put him first anymore. It was too scary to make him that important in her life again. And I believe that is why Bay could not let go of Tank. He was her security blanket, and Bay felt like she needed a security blanket, in order to take a chance with a cheater, like Emmett. On the beach, Emmett was right. They shouldn't have to try to make it work. It should just work. And it didn't work, so they needed to let each other go. In an interview, Lizzy Weiss said that once Bay cheated on Tank, she understood what Emmett had done, and Bay was able to put the whole cheating thing behind her. But I don't believe she was able to put it behind her. Yes, Bay understood that you could really care about someone (as she did with Tank) and she understood that you could cheat on the person, without meaning to hurt him. In that respect, I believe it opened a door to Bay dating Emmett again. But Bay knew that she never loved Tank in that way, so I think she was still wondering how Emmett could have cheated on her, if he loved her the way that she loves him. Now, if instead of looking at it as a rape, if Bay would just open her mind to the possibility that she cheated on Emmett, when she had sex with Tank, then she would see that a person can totally love another person (as she does with Emmett) and that person can still be so insecure and confused that something can happen (like it did between her and Tank AND like it did between Simone and Emmett). I think that knowledge, if Bay will admit to it, could be what allows Bay & Emmett to get it right, if they give their relationship a third go. Quote:
It should just work. Emmett was not scared or unwilling to DO the work, but it should work. Since it wasn't working, Emmett wasn't willing to force it, not with so much at stake. He has his entire future riding on this college education. To Emmett's way of thinking, their entire future is riding on it. It's not like Bay, with her felony conviction, is in a good position to support them. I went back and watched the episode Protect Me From What I Want yesterday. That's the episode that aired on Valentine's Day 2012, where Bay & Emmett declare their love for each other, for the first time. What Emmett wants, what Emmett desperately needs, is a happy family. Bay has always had that. Emmett hasn't. What Bay has always wanted, at least in the past, is to belong. Bay has wanted someone to choose her, to put her first. But Emmett did that, from the moment he made his mistake with Simone, Emmett recognized it, apologized for it, and put Bay first, from that moment forward. But I don't think that was enough, because Bay didn't seem really happy or connected to Emmett, during their second relationship. I don't think they could recover from Emmett's original mistake. If they are both struggling to the point of unhappiness in trying to connect, and I believe that they were, then Emmett is right. Now is not the time for Bay to move to LA. They missed their window of opportunity. Perhaps what Bay is going through with Tank will help her understand that Emmett did love her, despite his cheating on her with Simone. I don't know. Quote:
I feel strongly that if a person makes the choice to drink, then, whether male or female, the person should be responsible for their choices while drunk. Quote:
But in full disclosure, I do not believe cheating is a terrible thing. Of course, it is preferable not to do it, and I have been lucky and strong. I never have. But I don't think awful things about the people who do, and a lot of people do cheat. Heck, most of our Presidents have cheated on their wives. So many people cheat. I just read some cool stuff from Anne Lamott tonight. She's a great writer. Her words are not specifically about cheating, but they do explain why I don't feel it is such a bad thing: So life is hard, people are precious--it's a miracle we even exist, and we are all screwed up. To me, when mistakes are made, like cheating, we need, I need, to forgive completely, with a heart full of love, and I do.# 8. Families; hard, hard, hard, no matter how cherished and astonishing they may also be. (See #1 again.) At family gatherings where you suddenly feel homicidal or suicidal, remember that in half of all cases, it's a miracle that this annoying person even lived. Earth is Forgiveness School. You might as well start at the dinner table. That way, you can do this work in comfortable pants. When Blake said that we are here to learn to endure the beams of love, he knew that your family would be an intimate part of this, even as you want to run screaming for your cute little life. But that you are up to it. You can do it, Cinderellie. You will be amazed. Quote:
Personally, emotional cheating would sting me a little more than physical cheating, because I pride myself on being someone that my partner can open up to emotionally and trust, but ultimately, all that really matters to me, is that my partner's needs are met, both emotionally and physically, however he needs to meet them. As for Bay sitting on Tank's lap, that was because she was drunk, too. So do you excuse any choice Bay made while drunk? To you, does the drinking completely absolve Bay of sharing things with her ex-boyfriend Tank, that she should not have shared while she was in a relationship with Emmett. If a man drank, and had a girl sit on his lap, putting his hands on her inner thighs, would his drinking absolve him from cheating, too? Or do you just believe it is women who are absolved of poor decision making while drunk? Quote:
In that case, Bay would be sharing information that Emmett expected would remain private, just between him and Bay, as a token of their intimacy. It would hurt the trust between Bay & Emmett, for sure, but not as much as if Bay shared the same information with Tank. Tank is a person with whom Bay shares some romantic and sexual feelings, and he is a person who still feels MANY romantic and sexual feelings for her. That's what makes Bay sharing the information with Tank emotional cheating, and not simply the breaking of a confidence. |
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Part of the reason I'm so anti-cheating is because part of the reason my parents got a divorce is because one of them cheated on the other. They are much happier apart, and I'm not sad about their divorce, but I still do not think one of them should have cheated on the other. I don't understand why people just don't break up with their significant others first. Obviously a marriage is a lot more complicated than people who are dating (especially if there are kids involved), but still. Quote:
I personally feel like what happened with Tank and Bay was sexual assault. Even if a person was drunk, that doesn't mean someone could take advantage of them -- in this case, it doesn't mean Tank could take advantage of Bay, and I don't see her sleeping with him if she had been sober. I know Tank had been drinking, too, but from the flashbacks, she had more to drink than he did. When the episode first aired, I thought someone had slipped something in Bay's drink and that's why she had trouble remembering and things like that. And yes, Bay did make the decision to drink, but she was among friends, where she probably thought she would be safe and not have to worry about anything. Quote:
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After you bumped the Ecce Mono thread, I realized that I should go back and watch a few older episodes and do the same. It's fun to look at them with fresh eyes. Quote:
Perhaps in Bay's mind, she thought, "Well, I cheated on Tank, but I never loved Tank. Does that mean Emmett never loved me?" That's one of the reasons I am hopeful that Bay will recognize, after cheating on Emmett, that sometimes a perfect storm of events do all converge and the unthinkable happens. Bay loves Emmett, and yet, she cheated on him. Perhaps that will allow Bay to see that Emmett loves her, too--that his cheating never meant he didn't. Bay hasn't faced that she cheated on Emmett yet, but I hope she will. Even if Bay chooses to look at the sexual act as a rape (and I hope she doesn't, because I see nothing positive for Bay by looking at it that way), but even if she DOES choose to look at it as a rape, I still hope that Bay faces that she cheated on Emmett with her other choices. Bay was in a long-distance relationship with Emmett, and they were having problems. She was in a long-distance relationship with Emmett by her OWN choosing, and they were having problems. That's NOT a time to turn to your ex-boyfriend for comfort and support. That's not a time to share all of your current relationship problems with your ex-boyfriend. That's not a time to get drunk and flirt with your ex-boyfriend. That's not a time to sit on your ex-boyfriend's lap and let him put his hands all over you. When Bay explained to Emmett that the sex with Tank was partly her fault, too, I hope she apologized for making all of those poor choices. All I ever heard Bay say was, "I need you to know the truth and be okay with it." I feel that it would have gone a long way with Emmett, if Bay had also said, "I made mistakes, and I am sorry." I never heard Bay say that, and she did make mistakes. Bay won't let Tank take the blame for what happened between them. Bay won't take the blame herself. No one is taking ownership of the mistakes. Emmett cannot forgive anyone, if no one accepts responsibility. And yet, Emmett has been hurt. He needs to forgive. It's a mess. But I do think it has been a mess from the moment Bay and Emmett got back together. When Emmett tells Bay, "This isn't how it was supposed to happen between us," in Love Among the Ruins, I think that was a HUGE sign that their relationship was not going to work this time, and it didn't. From the moment Bay and Emmett got back together, things were off between them. To me, most of it stemmed from the fact that Bay didn't truly trust Emmett. Quote:
I don't think not getting into Pratt is what made Bay take the fall for Daphne. But I do wonder if Bay would have been willing to give up Pratt for Daphne. Bay may not have been willing to give it up for Daphne. I would like to think that she wouldn't have been willing, but then again, I would like to think that Bay would never make that kind of sacrifice, no matter what her plans for the future. Bay certainly gave up Emmett quickly enough for Daphne. We never even saw Bay think twice about that decision. We never saw a moment of regret. The first words out of Daphne's mouth were, "If you do this, you won't be able to go to LA with Emmett." And Bay quickly said, "I know," and it was obvious she didn't care. Honestly, I am still in shock that being with Emmett meant so little to Bay. It is probably the main reason I totally understand Emmett's decision on the beach. Why should Emmett distract himself from his studies now, when being with him meant so little to Bay then? It's strange to me. It truly is as if being with Emmett meant nothing to Bay, and I don't understand that. Quote:
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I am the EXACT opposite. I believe any relationship worth having is worth trying again and again and again and again and again and again and again, ad infinitum. Quote:
This show has helped me to solidify my feelings on cheating. It hasn't changed my feelings. From the time I was a little girl, I have always felt this same way. But after watching Switched at Birth, I have looked at the issue from almost every angle. This show sure has delved into the topic of cheating, more than any other I know. Quote:
People choose to get drunk to release themselves from their inhibitions. It doesn't matter what Bay would have wanted when she was sober, because Bay chose to get drunk. What matters is what Bay wanted while she was drunk. If Bay wanted sex with Tank, while she was drunk, then it was not assault. If Bay did not want sex with Tank, while she was drunk, then yes, it was assault. Unfortunately, Bay cannot remember what she wanted while she was drunk. Daphne asked Bay if she could have wanted sex with Tank, and Bay said that she didn't know. Tank said that she was into it, and I believe him. I just don't see it as assault, at all. I do feel sad for everyone involved, though. In her interviews, Lizzy Weiss was correct. Alcohol is the real villain, as it is in so many scenarios. It's sad. |
I don't think they did this storyline for in the end it to be categorized as cheating.
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If it is Bay's error in judgment, then she can make amends to Emmett for it. And Bay needs to make amends, if not for the act of sex itself, then at least for choosing to blur the lines of intimacy with Tank. Because Bay really blurred those lines, even without the sex, and that was unfair to Emmett, especially during a long distance relationship. That's something Emmett never did with Simone. Emmett never emotionally cheated on Bay. He may have danced around it with Skye, but not until Bay and Tank had sex, and even then, it was nothing like what Bay chose to do with Tank. If Bay would just apologize for that, it would help to heal her disconnect with Emmett. Plus, if Bay looks at blurring the lines of intimacy as her responsibility, her mistake, then she can take positive steps to minimize a misunderstanding like the one that happened with Tank from ever occurring with another man again. However, if Bay sees herself as just a victim of an assault, or as a survivor with no culpability, then she will be powerless to minimize the risk. I want Bay to see herself as capable of choosing a different course, one where things like this are less likely to happen. Because she is capable of doing that. Otherwise Bay is a victim, or at best a survivor, with little to no control over her own destiny. But Bay probably never will look at it that way. My guess is that the writers would have had Bay apologize to Emmett already, if they were ever going to go down that road. So what will probably happen is that, eventually, Emmett will realize "gray" means Bay had no choice, that this was done to her, that both Bay and Tank are innocent, that alcohol is to blame, or while we are at it, Emmett is to blame, because he IS the one who walked away from Bay during their picnic. Emmett will be the one that the writers deem as needing to grow. Sure, it's all Emmett's fault. Let's give him all the power. That's probably what the writers will do. Barf! Emmett already did his growing, but why would the writers recognize that? They seem to love painting everything Bay and Daphne do as blameless. It must be some new concept of feminism, where writers disenfranchise their female heroines, in order to make them appear perfect. But whether the writers ever have Bay or Daphne take ownership of any of their mistakes, they sure do need to do so, not for Emmett, although their choices have been mightily unfair to him, too. They need to do it for themselves. Edited to Add: I sounded hopeless, when I wrote this post, earlier today. But I still have hope. I believe that the writers will have Bay take responsibility for her mistakes. I have believed that would be the main story for Season 4B, since the mid-season finale. |
wow this episode was boring! wish i had more to say but ugh...
daphne's storyline is blah and her hating her mother annoys me to no end. bay/tank = snooze. i dont are about their lame and contrived friendship. nextttt. toby/the teacher chick were sort of interesting i guess but she already annoys me lol. Hoping the season will end better than this. |
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