PhoenixRising

Yeah, I get that. But I still think it was really unfair to Teddy given that by the time he grew up he probably had no interest in the throne and was hardly competent enough to rule after being in that tower for so long. No one would've wanted another Henry VI. Besides, they had a bigger threat in the form of the man who claimed to be Richard of Shrewsbury, Duke of York. They never knew for sure if he was actually one of the Princes in the Tower, but I guess The White Princess has some idea of this?

Well, whatever Henry VIII's issue was, I can tell OJ Simpson must've used him for inspiration. Seriously, I can imagine both Elizabeths turning over in their graves over what he did. And Elizabeth I had to call him "father."

Do you want to do the watch now, Nina?

Nikki K

I think that's where you are wrong insofar as there are always people who like to exploit others and Teddy would have been easier to manage than Henry VI, who actually had periods where he was quite lucid and able to make decision by himself.

In all honesty, if you have ever watched "The Tudors" you see that Mary has probably drawn the shortest end of the stick where their father was concerned. Elizabeth mostly flew under his radar until Katherine Parr tried to reconcile Henry with his children... at least that's the impression I got not just from the show but also from reading up on the period and the people involved.

And sure, if you're up for it. Episode 9 then?

PhoenixRising

See, now I have the interest in watching The Tudors, just to see where this story from The White Queen/Princess goes from here.

Yep, I have the episode ready. Say when you're ready to start watching!

Nikki K

You'll be missing an intermittent piece then though because "The Tudors" starts kind of in the middle of Henry VIII's reign and when TWP ends Arthur is just about to become engaged. But I can probably find you some audiobooks/novels to fill in the blanks... it's sadly an often neglected period inbetween.

Okay, let's get started... one moment. Tea and I'll be there.

Nikki K

Okay, let's go!

PhoenixRising

Okay, I'm here!

I saw a scene from TWP which gives me the impression that Henry resented Arthur, and Lizzie possibly favored Arthur over him. Arthur is the one that died before he could become king, right? Think of how much history would've changed if that had happened.

Nikki K

Welcome to Episode 9 of 'The White Queen' – where the three sons of York are now only one, after George got himself drowned in Malmsey wine and Edward drank, ate and whored himself to death. Good times – now Richard III, the villain is crowned.

And... opening credits!!! Roses!!!

PhoenixRising

Starting!

Notice how Richard is shown to have dark hair when Elizabeth sends him away and has an imposter sent to Richard III in his place, but in TWP Richard is suddenly blonde?

Nikki K

Yeah, some of that re-casting – I mean in TWQ Cecily is a brunette and in TWP she's blonde.

Self-deception is running high in Richard... or does that oath not sound half-hearted. Yeah... Anne also likes to deceives herself. And I bet she wears the crown as statement piece to bed.

Elizabeth is obset. "England will not accept it..." – oh, you know, look at England today and what they accept... or the world at large. It takes a lot to make them care for government.

Margaret has actual qualms – see that's why I'm so meh about TWP, I liked it better in TWQ where it was left quite ambiguous who killed the boys. In that scene in looks clearly like Margaret hopes that Richard will solve the problem for her. Anne hints that she can't wish the boys killed but ultimately does. But never gives direct orders.

Margaret sends someone to Elizabeth to propose the marriage between Henry and Lizzie.

PhoenixRising

Richard seems like a doomed king from the beginning.

OMG, is Margaret planning on doing what I think she is?

Anne is going to see the Princes... or at least one of them. She's suggesting that the boys are always going to be a threat, and that they can't become men. How can women contemplate killing children?

PhoenixRising

Elizabeth has just been told of Buckingham's terms for joining her against Richard and freeing her sons from the tower.

And she's also been told about Margaret's offer to marry Lizzie to Henry to join the houses of Lancaster and York and end the wars. Elizabeth accepts.

Margaret's husband is asking her if she wants the Princes killed. Is this God's will? Margaret nursed Richard to life, and now she's supposed to order his death? Of course, it isn't the real Richard.

Nikki K

Again you can see why I like this portrayal of Margaret better – she's not a total villain, she knows that the boys can't live if Henry is to be king but on the other hand it's not an easy decision for her at all, especially when she considers how she held little Richard after he was born. And it's her husband who is taunting her and goading her because ultimately he has married her for ambition too...

Yeah, the rescue failed.

I know it makes for appealing fiction but I really doubt that Richard or Edward got away.

Well, Margaret is far away from the sainthood she had once aspired to but the devil himself is clearly Richard III. – who is now snapping at Anne.

PhoenixRising

Yeah, Margaret does seem a lot more remorseful here.

The attack on the tower failed. So now they have to find another way.

Lizzie is already standing up to her mother. She doesn't trust Elizabeth's newfound allies.

Richard just got word about the attack. Anne wants their son crowned Prince of Wales as soon as possible to prevent anyone from taking the throne.

Nikki K

Edward of Middleham (Anne's and Richard's son) doesn't look happy at the prospect of moving to Wales. Well, who can blame him. According to my research watching Welsh crime shows it rains 365 days a year in Wales... probably 24/7 too.

Nikki K

She doesn't. But the alternative is not any better. Ah yeah well, we remember Rip Hunter is married to Elizabeth's sister and by the way also has some distant claim to the throne.

Well yeah, Richard, you'll die soon just your son and wife will die a bit sooner, so your lie doesn't matter.

Lizzie is really irritated here, meanwhile Cecily is actually trying to be a good and moderate influence here and not make her snap at her mother. Again, totally the reverse to how they behave in TWP.

Oh, Margaret, I hope you use a good cipher on your correspondence. Meanwhile Stanley turns on Margaret... which is unsurprising. I mean Margaret has heaps of money and lands, of course he wants to put his greedy hands on it even more than he can now.

Again, I like that it's so ambiguous as to who has killed the princes. There are enough suspects, enough people who have said at some point that they have to die, Richard, Anne, the Duke of Buckingham, Margaret, Stanley... could have been anyone. Ach Richard, nobody cares what a king you'll be.