BL.Arinna_1982

You're very welcome, Linda.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda! Aww, that's okay. I understand. Work keeps me busy too during the holidays, so the next few months are gonna be tough for me as well. Just post when you can, okay? I'll reply to your comment soon.

BL.Arinna_1982

And please be more detailed, Alex. She deserves it.

LindaL100

Thanks for your understanding guys, I'll try to post as often as I can

Anyway this is not related to Cesare & Lucrezia specifically, but if you guys use Twitter, then please vote for The Borgias in this poll:


The show is currently lagging way behind 'Shameless' and the voting ends in 4 days, so to everyone here who is on Twitter, please vote for The Borgias!

BL.Arinna_1982

Voted!

PhoenixRising

No problem, Linda. Like I said, my job is gonna be hectic as well for the next two months. I hate retail during the holidays.

Thanks for the link! I voted!

So Holly and Francois never auditioned together? Wow, that's amazing, because their chemistry is on fire. Either the casting director did a private audition that wasn't filmed, or they just got lucky. I still can't believe they wouldn't have them test together given how important the relationship was on the show. You're probably right, the stuff that got filmed was probably promotional.

Oh, the dialogue was everything in the beginning. They didn't have anything blatantly romantic, so everything had to be implied in the dialogue as well as the body language and facial expressions. After watching the show I'd be surprised if none of the writers had ever read Flowers In The Attic. And incest was frowned upon, but it's not like it hadn't happened back then, especially in royal families or nobility. The HBO series Rome showed Octavian(Augustus) having an incestuous affair with his sister, Octavia. And I think what always amazed me about Cesare and Lucrezia is how universal the support for that ship was among fans, and there was hardly any voice of opposition. The promos for Siblings even had the caption, "the moment you've been waiting for."

Yeah, I agree, if it were different actors then the show probably wouldn't have gone there. Francois and Holly definitely deserve credit, but as Francois said, it's not like it wasn't also all over the writing. Mark and Isolda were different, which is all I'll say. But there was something dispassionate about their characters. There seemed to be as much contempt between them as there was affection.

LindaL100

Well it's really the combination of Francois & Holly's awesome chemistry together, their brilliant performances and the dialogues that made Cesare & Lucrezia's lovestory so compelling and captivating and brought the incest to life. However for me it's really more of Francois & Holly's amazing chemistry together that really won me over the most, and really made the sibling's lovestory so beautiful and captivating for me, and I'm sure it's their chemistry that mostly won many other fans too I mean, even with all the incestuously romantic dialogues and body language, if the actors don't have any good chemistry together, then everything would just fall flat and become very fake and forced and unconvincing. I mean just look at Francois & Sarah Ramos in Francois' new series Midnight Texas, even though they both played a couple in that show and they both had plenty of romantic scenes together, but they lack any chemistry together, so all their scenes together in the series just seems so forced and awkward and not convincing at all, even with all the romantic dialogues and body language their characters had in that show, their lack of chemistry made the Manfred & Creek romance very unconvincing and forced in Midnight Texas and made them a very unpopular couple with fans of that show. It's a stark contrast to Francois' awesome & natural chemistry with Holly and their brilliant performances in The Borgias of course all the dialogues and body language between Cesare & Lucrezia helped, but I think their brilliant chemistry together played a bigger role in bringing the Cesare & Lu incest to life on-screen and really made the siblings' lovestory so captivating and believable I think chemistry between the actors is so important, if not the most important, because without the chemistry between the actors, everything just falls flat and the storylines and relationships between the characters become unconvincing. And Jordan did say that he thought Francois & Holly had too much sexual tension and romantic chemistry together, of course it was all over Jordan's own writing too, but I think Francois & Holly's amazing chemistry together really intensified the incest plotline far beyond Jordan's expectations. Even in the siblings' first ever scene together in the courtyard in ep 1x01 where Cesare & Lu both lay on the grass together, their very first interaction together in that scene was already very inappropriately intimate and incestuously romantic...but that whole scene would've felt very flat and fake if the characters had been portrayed by 2 different actors who lack chemistry together. I mean, imagine if Lucrezia was played by Sarah Ramos instead (who is already a very stiff and wooden actress to begin with) and Francois was filming that courtyard scene with Ramos, would that scene (or any of Cesare & Lu's scenes together in the series for that matter) have been the same or even remotely watchable? Of course not, if Ramos had played Lucrezia in this series, then all of her scenes with Francois would've seemed and felt so forced, unconvincing and cringe-worthy, just like all their boring & cringey scenes together in Midnight Texas. So hiring actors with good on-screen chemistry together is very important, it's what makes the storylines and interactions between the characters believable. And that's why I think Showtime, Jordan and the rest of the production team were very lucky to have cast Francois & Holly as Cesare & Lu, they were very lucky to have found 2 talented actors who had fantastic chemistry together I think there are very few other actors out there with the chemistry who would've been able to nail that incest storyline even nearly as well or convincing as Francois & Holly did

BL.Arinna_1982

If only Holiday was in Midnight, Texas.

LindaL100

Me too Arinna, Manfred & Creek's relationship in Midnight Texas would've been MUCH better and much more believable if Creek was played by Holly instead, she had such insane chemistry with Francois in The Borgias! If Holly had played Creek in Midnight Texas, then in a way it would've been like a de facto "sequel" to The Borgias and Cesare & Lucrezia's relationship

I still wish for Francois & Holly to work together again in the future

BL.Arinna_1982

They share an amazing chemistry.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda! Sorry I didn't post here yesterday. I was really worn out from work and slept all day.

Brought the incest to life? Nice way of putting it. But yes, Francois and Holliday only get half of the credit. The other half has to go to the writing, which is the reason why I don't buy any of Jordan's denials, and even Francois called him out on it. But if it weren't for the chemistry between them, I don't think it would've worked nearly as well. But of course, Francois had chemistry with pretty much everyone on the show. The only character I didn't like Cesare with was Ursula. It must have just been the way she was written, but hardly any fan liked her. I'm surprised the show didn't try to get him with Sancia, since that actually did happen in the history. There was another European version of The Borgias that had Cesare and Lucrezia having a threesome with Sancia. I'd have paid money to see that.

Yeah, let's not bring up Francois and Sarah Ramos. That's really boring. Sometimes shows really don't cast well, or they put characters and actors together more or less out of obligation or by committee, not because it's the right thing to do. I hate that because it ruins the creative process. Let's try to stay with Cesare and Lucrezia, although I get using the Manfred/Creek thing as an example of chemistry that doesn't work. I could think of a lot of other forced couples on TV shows, but this is not the place for it. I think Arinna knows which ones I mean.

Jordan's excuses don't ring true to me. If he thought Francois and Holly had too much chemistry then why did he even cast them? And why write and structure their scenes together the way they did? What brother and sister lie next to each other on a grass lawn and gaze into each other's eyes? That's practically from Twilight. And Cesare pushing Lucrezia against a wall while telling what he'd do to a husband who mistreated her while she smiles back at him gleefully is... well, not very sibling-like. And her telling Cesare that she could never love a husband as she loves him... oh, come on, man! He even carries Lucrezia to her bed on her wedding night, for Pete's sake!

Yep, Showtime and Jordan were very lucky to get Francois and Holly and their chemistry. But I resent Jordan for ruining it, possibly out of spite for the show becoming something other than he may have intended, although I honestly don't know what he was thinking since Cesare and Lucrezia were the members of the family that carried on after Rodrigo's death. Hell, even the BBC version of The Borgias back in 1980 had the story end with Cesare and Lucrezia.

BL.Arinna_1982

x

LindaL100

Arinna: thanks for sharing that cute pic

Alex:

Well the reason why I mentioned Francois' chemistry (or lack thereof) with Sarah Ramos is because I needed to make a comparison in order to prove my point, and since Ramos is really the only co-star whom Francois has absolutely no chemistry with, I thought it was only fitting to mention it. And it's true, their horribly dismal chemistry is a stark contrast to Francois' incredibly beautiful chemistry with Holliday Believe me, I hate bringing up the topic of Francois' lack of chemistry with Ramos, but for the sake of making that comparison, I had to bring her up.

As for Jordan, like I've mentioned before, I think he's just a very conflicting person who just contradicts himself...he's a bit of a enigma when it comes to figuring out what he's really thinking because the things he says and does tends to contradict each other, he could say or do one thing, but then say/do the opposite. Like him saying Francois & Holly had too much sexual chemistry together and yet he himself wrote the incest plotline with so much romantic overtones. Then saying that there lack any concrete evidence to prove that Cesare & Lucrezia actually had an incestuous relationship in real-life, even though he basically fabricated 96% of the storylines, these are just a few examples. So I have given up trying to comprehend Jordan and what he was thinking.

BL.Arinna_1982

I've rewatched all CL recently, because I miss them...

PhoenixRising

I do too, Arinna. Maybe we should do another rewatch eventually?


I'll reply to you soon, Linda! I got home a bit later than usual.