The Borgias - Niccolo Machiavelli - It is much more secure to be feared than to be loved

xinya · 05-22-2012, 11:06 AM

~Niccolò Machiavelli~

(3 May 1469 – 21 June 1527) was an Italian humanist and writer based in Florence. He was the first son and third child of attorney, Bernardo di Niccolò Machiavelli, and his wife, Bartolomea di Stefano Nelli. A founder of modern political science, he was a diplomat, political philosopher, playwright, and a civil servant of the Florentine Republic. As a young man, Machiavelli was taught grammar, rhetoric, and Latin, and became a prolific writer. It is thought that he did not learn Greek, even though Florence was at the time one of the centers of Greek scholarship in Europe. In 1494, Florence restored the republic — expelling the Medici family, who had ruled Florence for some sixty years. In June 1498, shortly after the execution of Savonarola, Machiavelli, at the age of 29, was elected as head of the second chancery. In July 1498, he was also made the secretary of the Dieci di Libertà e Pace. He was in a diplomatic council responsible for negotiation and military affairs. Between 1499 and 1512 he carried out several diplomatic missions: to the court of Louis XII in France; to the court of Ferdinand II of Aragón, in Spain; in Germany; and to the Papacy in Rome, in the Italian states. Moreover, from 1502 to 1503 he witnessed the brutal reality of the state-building methods of Cesare Borgia (1475–1507) and his father Pope Alexander VI, who were then engaged in the process of trying to bring a large part of central Italy under their possession. Between 1503 and 1506 Machiavelli was responsible for the Florentine militia, including the City’s defense. in August 1512 the Medici, helped by Pope Julius II, used Spanish troops to defeat the Florentines at Prato. Piero Soderini resigned as Florentine head of state and left in exile. The Florentine city-state and the Republic were dissolved. Machiavelli was deprived of office in 1512 by the Medici. In 1513 he was accused of conspiracy, arrested, and imprisoned for a time. After his release, Machiavelli retired to his estate at Sant'Andrea in Percussina (near San Casciano in Val di Pesa), and devoted himself to study and to the writing of the political treatises that earned his intellectual place in the development of political philosophy and political conduct. During this time he also wrote his masterpiece "The Prince". Machiavelli died in 1527 at the age of 58. He was buried at the Church of Santa Croce in Florence, Italy.

A bibliography see Wikipedia | Works of Machiavelli.

~Julian Bleach~

(*1964 in Bournemouth, Dorset, England) is an English actor, who trained at the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art and is best known as co-creator and "M. C." of Shockheaded Peter, a musical entertainment based on the works of Heinrich Hoffmann, which won the 2002 Olivier Award for Best Entertainment. His other theatre work includes playing Ariel to Patrick Stewart's Prospero in the RSC's 2007 production of The Tempest, and Mr. Sowerberry (to Louise Gold's Mrs. Sowerberry) and Dr. Grimwig in the 2009 Theatre Royal Drury Lane production of the musical Oliver!. On television, he has starred as "The Monster" in the 2007 ITV adaptation of Frankenstein. Bleach also performed the role of Davros, enemy of the Doctor and creator of the Daleks, in "The Stolen Earth" & "Journey's End", the 2-part season finale of the 2008 series of Doctor Who, and live at the Doctor Who Prom. In 2010, it was announced that he would star as the titular character in The Nightmare Man, the opening story of Series 4 of The Sarah Jane Adventures. In 2011, he appeared as Niccolò Machiavelli in the Showtime series The Borgias.

So I thought I'll start a thread about Machiavelli.

Who has read The Prince?

Nikki K · 05-22-2012, 11:20 AM

I read bits and pieces but never the whole thing. To be honest I mostly disagree with his reasons of state, take the quote you used for the thread title for example. I don't think that fear is a reason for your subjects to be loyal in the long run, it'll only have them rebel against you at some point. Of course you cannot rely on their love alone, but that doesn't mean that fear is the answer.

Elenwyn · 05-22-2012, 03:36 PM

Yaaay, Machiavelli

I've read most of the Prince, and bits and pieces of Discourses. I did a lot about him on part of my course this year and a bit last year. He's probably one of my favourite theorists. He's very negative about human nature, and so am I

And I really like his portrayal on the show. ...And I have literally just realised I saw Julian Bleach play Ariel in a production of The Tempest! He was the best thing in it (apart from Patrick Stewart, who was outstanding) and freaked me out so much. Wow...shows what a quick Google search can find! (And now I won't be able to look at Machiavelli without thinking of him coming out of a whale carcass dressed in its bones/organs etc. There are pictures on Google of his portrayal of Ariel, he was the scariest Ariel I've ever seen in my life.)

Nikki K · 05-22-2012, 05:04 PM

That's exciting, that you saw him on stage. And then next to Patrick Stewart!

I just remember him from Doctor Who and SJA. I looked at some of the pictures as you suggested and well... positively scary (as were his roles Who-verse... so I just can't help it when I first saw him on The Borigas I was all like: Machiavelli invented the Daleks? That explains a lot.)

I'm quite cynical about human nature but not negative.

If you want to discuss the book, could we please do it in chapters? I'd have to catch up reading.

xinya · 05-23-2012, 04:28 AM

I read the Prince quite recently and previously I heard various things about how he is evil and some ppl call him the Devils ambassdor or something. But when I read it, I did not think he was evil or anything. I just felt he is defining a state based on what is around him and what has worked and what has failed.

It would be cool to discuss the book and do it chapter by chapter....who is up for it?

Elenwyn · 05-23-2012, 04:48 AM

Nikki It was the best play I've ever seen, I'll never forget it

Hah, it would explain a lot of Machiavelli had invented the Daleks.

Zinnia - I wondered why people call him that. I think he was one of the first to advocate the need for a separation of Church and state...I'm guessing that didn't go down well with the Church, so maybe that's the reason. I can't see anything particularly evil in his work either.

I'd like to do that

I'll have to read it again though, and I'll probably be a little slow at discussing until the end of next week when work is all over. But I'm up for it

Nikki K · 05-26-2012, 11:00 AM

Sure. (I can tell you right out that I skimmed through some pages now and realise that I have my difficulties with the translation though.) Should we pretty up the thread in the meantime?

xinya · 05-27-2012, 07:31 AM

Lets start chapter by chapter I guess?

Yeah Nina, lets pretty it up! What you thinking?

Nikki K · 05-27-2012, 10:12 AM

Banner, a bit of biography, list of his writings? Something like that, y/n?

(I actually think we should do that for all the threads on the board. Better sooner than later because are we not about 2300 posts away from the 20k? I know it's still a lot but I think you can't plan soon enough.)

ETA: If we have some extremely good weeks I'd say that goal could be reached in six to seven weeks if everyone's working together.

ring of fire · 05-27-2012, 12:24 PM

I read part of The Prince when I went to law school (I only assisted for one semester) and I liked it. But I don't remember much because it was like six years ago

Nikki K · 05-27-2012, 12:53 PM

It was *that* forgettable?

ring of fire · 05-27-2012, 03:52 PM

I think I forgot everything about that one semester because law school was incredible boring for me

Nikki K · 05-27-2012, 06:16 PM

There are things in my gradschool career I'd rather forget too.

**BL.Arinna_1982** · 05-27-2012, 10:09 PM

So you guys have read The Prince?

Elenwyn · 05-28-2012, 11:49 AM

Most of it, yeah

I'm no good with arts, but I can get quotes from the show if we wanted something like that in the OP?

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