[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Hi, Lila! Ohh, so there was an actual account of an accusation? That's awesome! Tall, well-made, and sleeps with his sister, huh? That's a pretty good endorsement. Oh, so this guy accused Cesare of killing both Juan and Alfonso? Well, that's actually probably true, but I think he overlooked that both Juan and Alfonso wanted Cesare out of the way and possibly attempted to assassinate him. I'm gonna reply to the rest of your post soon, Lila. My vacation starts tomorrow, so I'll have more time to post.

Hi Alex! I'm happy your vacation is starting & hope you enjoy the time away from your stressful job!

Yes, Cesare had good reasons to kill those 2 if they were threatening him or his relationship with Lu. Alfonso was VERY jealous of him, just like on the show. He believed Cesare wanted Lucrezia for himself and also feared he'd try to get rid of him because the french king wanted Naples. He was right on both counts

Capello was powerful enough not to fear the Borgias. Machieavelli even wrote about it, so did Francesco Guicciardini, a contemporary of the Borgias, in his book "Storia d'Italia". Others were too fearful of Cesare to put their suspicions in writing. And for good reason: Cesare had a well-known Roman writer killed after he wrote about the incest. His tongue was nailed to his severed head, and his body was displayed in a public square as a warning to others.

Some people are so squeamish about incest that they refuse to believe it happened (NJ comes to mind). It's ludicrous to require "proof" in order to believe it likely. What do people need - a sworn affidavit? An eyewitness watching from inside the bedroom? It was the 15th century - you can't judge by modern standards - there were no cameras back then

And Cesare would've made sure they weren't observed having sex. He ADORED Lucrezia and would never have risked anyone finding proof. His reputation for ruthlessness BEGAN when he started murdering people who threatened his relationship with her for god's sake!

If baby Giovanni was their child, their youthful inexperience led to the scandal, but they learned to be much more careful. It's amazing that some people believe she was having an affair with the pope's messenger, Perotto, simply because he admitted to it. Of course he admitted to it: she was 6 months pregnant when her marriage was annulled, testifying at the Vatican looking fatter and wearing concealing clothing. Rodrigo knew she was pregnant and I'm certain he knew about the incest. Perotto was just a convenient fall guy. He was a peasant with no family, and he was intensely loyal to the pope and fond of Lucrezia. Only 2 months after he admitted to the affair, his garotted body and that of one of Lucrezia's ladies were found in the Tiber. That's not proof of an affair. It could've been that Cesare believed Perotto and the woman would betray him. Maybe they found out about the incest. Maybe lots of reasons.



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[BL.Arinna_1982]

[PhoenixRising]

Awww, I love that gif, Arinna!

Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post) Hi Alex! I'm happy your vacation is starting & hope you enjoy the time away from your stressful job! Yes, Cesare had good reasons to kill those 2 if they were threatening him or his relationship with Lu. Alfonso was VERY jealous of him, just like on the show. He believed Cesare wanted Lucrezia for himself and also feared he'd try to get rid of him because the french king wanted Naples. He was right on both counts Capello was powerful enough not to fear the Borgias. Machieavelli even wrote about it, so did Francesco Guicciardini, a contemporary of the Borgias, in his book "Storia d'Italia". Others were too fearful of Cesare to put their suspicions in writing. And for good reason: Cesare had a well-known Roman writer killed after he wrote about the incest. His tongue was nailed to his severed head, and his body was displayed in a public square as a warning to others.

Hi, Lila! Thanks, my vacation has already started. I'm gonna rest a lot. But I also have to start planning how I'm getting out of here.

Well, Alfonso was correct, wasn't he? But didn't Cesare actually survive an assassination attempt that was supposedly arranged by Alfonso? So it's not like Cesare didn't have cause to have Alfonso killed.

Wow, thanks for the info about Capello and all of the written accounts of Cesare Borgia. He actually had a writer killed after he wrote about Ces and Lu's incest? Wow, that makes you think about why he did it. Was it to avoid family scandal and slander, or to prevent the truth from being known? And his tongue was nailed to his severed head? Yuck.

I'll reply to the rest of your post soon, Lila! I'm pretty wiped out after work today.

[BL.Arinna_1982]

[Mignonette]

Thanks Arinna, for another hot slo-mo gif!

She giggled after that kiss, but he was horrified and ashamed of himself..

He was scared someone had seen, but she was too lost in emotion to care.

I love how right after the kiss, they turned away, so neither could see the other's face: His shock & shame vs her surprise & delight. Totally opposite reactions to something they'd wanted forever

It's so hot how he took control without asking her permission

Like Alex has said, Ces was so aggressive with her before they became lovers, but he changed into a virginal schoolboy afterwards - so true

[PhoenixRising]

I love that kiss, Arinna!

Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post) Some people are so squeamish about incest that they refuse to believe it happened (NJ comes to mind). It's ludicrous to require "proof" in order to believe it likely. What do people need - a sworn affidavit? An eyewitness watching from inside the bedroom? It was the 15th century - you can't judge by modern standards - there were no cameras back then And Cesare would've made sure they weren't observed having sex. He ADORED Lucrezia and would never have risked anyone finding proof. His reputation for ruthlessness BEGAN when he started murdering people who threatened his relationship with her for god's sake!

Well, there's enough evidence to suggest that perhaps something happened with them, but we'll never know the details. But I do think that the fact that it was the Pope's family that there's some resistance to believing it. And yeah, there's a lot of other stuff that happened back then that people still accept as truth.


Well, like you said, Cesare made sure that he had access to Lucrezia where they wouldn't be observed. I guess if they lived in Spain it would be different, but Rome drew a lot of attention and he knew they had to be discreet.

Yeah, I think Cesare was just caught off guard. It's one thing to flirt with your sister, it's another thing when she flirts back.

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Well, there's enough evidence to suggest that perhaps something happened with them, but we'll never know the details. But I do think that the fact that it was the Pope's family that there's some resistance to believing it. And yeah, there's a lot of other stuff that happened back then that people still accept as truth. Well, like you said, Cesare made sure that he had access to Lucrezia where they wouldn't be observed. I guess if they lived in Spain it would be different, but Rome drew a lot of attention and he knew they had to be discreet. Yeah, I think Cesare was just caught off guard. It's one thing to flirt with your sister, it's another thing when she flirts back.

Hi Alex! Ces liked being in control, didn't he? Lu had always been submissive to him, so he wasn't used to her aggression. And he was blindsided by his loss of control when he kissed her at the wedding seating board. He was overwhelmed and out of control for the first time in his life with her.

I love that you are so perceptive about Lu & Ces and your insight into the dynamics of their relationship is spot on. Are you a psychologist incognito? Most people are surface thinkers who don't take the time to look deeper. But the depth is where the intrigue lies and curiosity gets you there.

I agree there's enough evidence to suggest incest. There are too many coincidences to be random. If you look at a single incident, it can maybe be explained away, but taken in whole, the picture is pretty clear.

Ces wasn't violent as a boy. Everything started when Lu entered puberty and other boys became interested in her. She was beautiful and sweet, so she had admirers. He'd always been jealous and possessive, but adolescent testosterone intensified his feelings and impulsively, so that he became enraged if a man was getting too close.

His very reputation for ruthlessness began when his jealousy over Lu exploded into violence.

The men he injured or killed in those early years were her admirers. Rodrigo knew Ces had incestuous feelings for her, because he covered up his crimes many times - perhaps even the murder of Juan. If there was actual incest, Rodrigo most certainly knew.

Whenever she returned a man's affection like with Alfonso of Aragon, he always reacted with violence. He killed a lot of men that you don't hear about, because they weren't men of importance. But many murders in Rome were attributed to him from his teen years and were almost certainly admirers of Lu that he'd seen as a threat.

Yes, Rodrigo being pope put the family under a microscope and the kids were born and raised in Rome, so people knew them. They were in love and completely fascinated with each other, and their letters reflected that. NJ talked about that in an interview.

[PhoenixRising]

Hi, Lila! Arinna is away from home and won't be back until tomorrow, so that's why she hasn't posted today.

Oh, he did. Lu had been submissive, but only because she was young and hadn't learned hot to be more in control. It was after her bad experience with Sforza, her lessons with Giulia and Vanozza, and her learning how to manipulate men with those two brothers and later Alfonso, that she really began to exercise her power. She did seem shocked when Ces kissed her at the wedding board, but didn't she just try to seduce him with her nakedness in her bedroom earlier in that episode?

No, I'm not a psychologist. I just pay attention to the show, and I've watched a LOT of television. But thanks, I appreciate the compliment. And thanks, I agree that there is enough evidence to suggest that something was going on, even though we don't know what the extent was. Mario Puzo obviously felt there was something. And thanks for the info about Ces. I wasn't sure about whether or not his violent streak was something that began early or late. I guess it would make sense that he'd become more protective of Lu as she entered puberty, and that would lead him to become more aggressive.

[BL.Arinna_1982]

[PhoenixRising]

Ooooh, I love that gif, Arinna! Is that the "scandal" scene?

[Mignonette]

Wth? I hit save and it double posted. Sorry guys, please delete

[Mignonette]

Yeah, Alex, it is and the way she looks at him there wow

He then looks at her lips and she drags him off to

Thanks, Arinna, you know how much I love the slo-mo gifs, and that's one of my favorite scenes

[BL.Arinna_1982]

They were juuuuuust about to kiss here.

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by BL.Arinna_1982 (View Post) They were juuuuuust about to kiss here.

Yes, they were! I wish we could've seen where they went and what they did there

[PhoenixRising]

Hi, Lila! Aww, don't worry about it. You hit "save?" Yeah, I never use any of those weird functions so I'd just stay away from that. I just hit either quick reply or reply with quote. I really don't know what that other stuff does.

Now lemme get back to what you posted earlier.

Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post) And Cesare would've made sure they weren't observed having sex. He ADORED Lucrezia and would never have risked anyone finding proof. His reputation for ruthlessness BEGAN when he started murdering people who threatened his relationship with her for god's sake! If baby Giovanni was their child, their youthful inexperience led to the scandal, but they learned to be much more careful. It's amazing that some people believe she was having an affair with the pope's messenger, Perotto, simply because he admitted to it. Of course he admitted to it: she was 6 months pregnant when her marriage was annulled, testifying at the Vatican looking fatter and wearing concealing clothing. Rodrigo knew she was pregnant and I'm certain he knew about the incest. Perotto was just a convenient fall guy. He was a peasant with no family, and he was intensely loyal to the pope and fond of Lucrezia. Only 2 months after he admitted to the affair, his garotted body and that of one of Lucrezia's ladies were found in the Tiber. That's not proof of an affair. It could've been that Cesare believed Perotto and the woman would betray him. Maybe they found out about the incest. Maybe lots of reasons.

So you think Cesare gave Lucrezia that special house in Rome for that reason, so he could sneak in and be with her unobserved? Well, he did become ruthless after the Alfonso thing, yeah, but was it also after the thing with her and Sforza? In real life, Giovanni Sforza wasn't abusive to her, so was it just Cesare being defensive?

Well, the situation with baby Giovanni is interesting because Rodrigo released two separate Papal bulls stating first that he was Cesare's son, and then that he was Rodrigo's son with another woman. This is the part of the Borgia history that's totally confusing for me, because why do any of that at all? The official history doesn't even acknowledge baby Giovanni as being Lucrezia's son. They actually list the daughter she had with her third husband, Alfonso d'Este, as her firstborn child. So then why make Perotto the fall guy if you're just gonna say that it was Cesare's and then say that it was your own child with another woman? And why not just say it was Perotto's instead of risking a scandal by saying that it was yours with another woman when you're the Pope? That's the part that's confusing as hell for me. I mean, if he's covering up Cesare and Lucrezia's incest you'd think Rodrigo could lie better than that.