Aristotle was a smart man.

I definitely agree with him there. No mater how good the characterization is, I'm not going to be interested unless there is a good plot to support it. But a lot of the time, the two go hand in hand. Maybe I'm wrong, but if you have good characterization, generally it means you have thought out a decent plot.

[img]smilies/wave.gif[/img] hi! thanks for the welcome!

oh, i didn't arrange those in order.
I agree that plot is more important. Establish a good plot first then the plot will rely on the characters. To do justice with the plot, one has to establish a clear characterisation.

oh, I just noticed that sometimes, spellings are different... we have British and American spelling being a good example of those difference. So it's better if we used whichever we are more in common with. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

The obvious cultural spelling differences don’t bother me (color vs. colour); in fact, I find them rather interesting. The mixed up homonyms (their, there and they’re) and omitted letters (her instead of here), however, drive me up the wall. Spelling programs are great, but not infallible. I think a teacher once told my class that in order to really check for spelling errors, you should read the words in reverse order (start at the end of the sentence or paragraph), otherwise, your mind may fill in the word you are expecting to see rather than the word that is actually written.

This thread is brilliant! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Myself I started writing fan fiction about a year ago; I had written quite a lot of original stories before, something I think has helped me greatly. I didn't have to make the horrible mistakes in the plots with the stories at ff.net, but could leave them in my drawer [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Now, these stories were all in my mothertounge, and therefore only basic writing stuff is comparable. I had to learn how to write in English for fan fic, and even though I think I had a pretty good grip of the language in the beginning, I still find bunches of errors in those early works (that never were posted either, thank God).

I agree with almost everything said here - but I have to put in my fifty cents in the spelling/grammar issue.
As I already mentioned I don't have English as my mothertounge, it's my third language - and this is a bit troublesome at times. I have found myself translating sayings in my mothertounge directly (and doing the reversed while speaking at home too...:P) which almost never is correct, and even though I have the best beta on the planet (who happens to be Spanish), neither of us can pick out every error. Add to this that I am 16 years old [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

So, to summaraize this - I *do* think grammar/spelling is very, very important, but I get a bit bummed when people state things like "spelling/grammar errors make you look like a 13-year-old". That wasn't any exact quote from here, but I have come across it elsewhere.
I realize that me living in a bilingual country in which both spoken languages are very small (non-existant) elsewhere might give me another attitude toward this than Americans/Brits/people from other big language groups, so maybe this makes no sense :/

About keeping in character - I couldn't agree more on everything said! There is nothing I hate more than these overly fluffy fics that only seem to envolve around marriage/four kids and a dog [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Sure, that might work in a soap opera, but turning drama characters into that is seldom really appropriate.

This is where I think original writing at first is very helpful, no matter in which language - if you get used to describing your own characters, then you might be able to keep the fictional ones in character better AND more easily fit original ones into a fic. ('Original' as in those you've come up with yourself, NOT RL characters)
Myself I'm currently writing a long story (that can be a real pain at times...) - and I have realized that I enjoy my original characters in it more than the original ER characters! Now my story happens to be UC and, therefore I guess, also AU so maybe that has something to do with it, but it is still 115 pages and counting [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Another thing about languages that we right now started discussing at the ER ff thread - not writing in your mothertounge might be dangerous in a way, at least IMO. Not only is there a danger of loosing your grip of your language as the English gets stronger (trust me, I have done exactly this. Scary stuff, you feel half-lingual instead) - but many emotions and other similar words just don't have the "feel" in them in English. I'm especially thinking about words in the lines of love/hate, and this has really freaked me out recently when I realized that I could write a lot more "serious" things in English without feeling the seriousness. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

About songfics; I like them, to a certain point. Myself I once wrote a very tragic story inlcuding the song "I'll be missing you" - this was about a soap 'ship and the audience probably mostly teens (as if I weren't one :P) - but personally I have always liked that piece very much. The lyrics are so personal to start with, and the fitted the story exactly - I had many songs in mind for that particular story, but ended up loving this one. IIRC I listened to it on repeat all the time while writing, and ended up including only the spoken prelude and bits and pieces of the rest, not in its right order either. (I also had to censor some words, since I otherwise might have had to turn this PG story into R) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
I hate it passionately though when people add the song to the story in this way; "...and then he suddenly heard [insert song] on the radio/TV/put it on the stereo.
That just sucks the feel out of it all, IMO.

That's really interesting! I'm trying it next time I write a fic. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Really? I tend to feel the opposite. My first language is Chinese, and I write some original Chinese fiction. Overall I feel more comfortable using English, but because the two languages are so different, I adapt my writing styles to suit the language. Although the styles then work out differently, I think I'm able to express what I want to express in either language.

English is very broad, with a lot of words that nearly mean the same thing but have subtle nuances and differences. I love that and I try to vary my vocab as much as possible to take advantage of that. On the other hand, Chinese is incredibly succinct. You can say so much in one or two characters what you have only begun to express in an English sentence. When I have written a lot in English I begin to long for the short, sharp 'spot-on' feeling of Chinese writing; and when I've written a lot in Chinese I want to go back to the beautiful textures and meanings of words in English. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Re: writing in a second language

I agree that this is much more difficult than just writing fic (although I've only had to write term papers in French). It's one thing if you are truly bilingual, but I'm really not critical of grammar/spelling when I know the author is not writing in their native language.

I don't know if I'd say it's dangerous to write in English for fear of losing a grasp with a native language, but people do say that translations are never quite as good as the original!

If you want to witness just how strange translated sentences can end up, go to alta vista's babel fish site (babel fish) and translate a typical sentence from one language to another, then translate the result back into the original language. Odds are what you end up with will not be the original sentence and will frequently be quite humorous.
I think Gloria Estefan once said that instead of writing a song in English and then translating it into Spanish for her Spanish-speaking audiences (or vice versa), she actually writes two sets of lyrics because translating tends to change the meaning.

[ 12-10-2003: Message edited dukesmom ]

Translating definitely looses the meaning. In certain languages there are words for some things that cannot possibly be conveyed in English. I know I'm going to sound a little weird, but this is my 4th year of Latin. Latin is actually, once you get past the odd grammar points, an extremely beautiful language. The words can create word pictures and sounds completely lost in the English translation. It's amazing how different it is.

And like someone mentioned before, when I know English is the writer's second language I don't mind grammar mistakes at all. Ideally, they should get a beta who is English, but I understand that it must be hard. I could never do it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Wow. Thats so cool. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I'm gonna do that next time im spell-checking my fics. Thats a great tip. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

You might think about getting a second beta who reads English natively. It's both the largest and the fastest-growing language in the world. I don't know how non-native speakers can ever keep up!

Reading the words in reverse order is a good spelling trick. Also, be aware that if all the correct letters are in a word, most of the time you will not notice that they are in the wrong order.

In translating, some languages work better than others. Some of my favorite books - almost all of them, in fact - have been translated from French or German into English. I've read books translated from Japanese, though, and they always sound flat. I have a friend with a degree in East Asian Languages, and he says that a lot of the "feeling" is in the characters and doesn't translate.

It's been a long time since I've been here.

I came down with a horrid case of writer's block (courtesy of my internal muse who gets pissy when I argue with her; she likes to have complete control in the writing process) since February and just started to break through it a little over a month ago. I got the idea for a fic -- the general plot -- that I wanted so desperately to write and it wouldn't go away. I had somewhat of an idea where I wanted to go with it and what characters I wanted to incorporate but I wasn't quite sure when it would end or how quite. Despite how discouraging my attempts in the months prior at writing any more than five pages had been, I decided to not only sit down and try to write it but to give my muse complete control and not to let feedback sway me (like I've unfortunately done in the past) and the first two chapters just came (I'm now on page 36). When I completed the first chapter, I still wasn't sure when it would end or whether or not it would be a 'shipper fic but as I wrote chapter two, things began to fall into place. I had plans for certain plot points but as I've actually written the dialogue and action, some of those I've dropped because they no longer would fit. One point hasn't changed since I thought of it -- the setting (time) of the final chapter. And the great thing is, I can see the end in sight. And I've found that with this story that I can't complete one chapter unless I have a general idea of what exactly is going to happen in the next one.

I normally won't even review or give feedback on a story unless I feel I have something constructive to say. I do think it's nice to know that someone likes what I'm writing but I like to know what they like specifically.

Yes! Yes! Grammar, spelling, and punctuation! I don't ask for much when reading fanfic, even bad fanfic, as long as there's proper capitalization, maybe a couple of periods every now and then, and some apostrophes. And I understand if the bad/improper grammar is in the dialogue (or character's thoughts) and it's deliberate (it's the way the character talks or the author's mocking, etc.) but when it's in the action it's just wrong. And it should never be an author's style.

How does everyone feel about fanfics where the dialogue is set up as it were a script and the action is just, well, sort of thrown in there? Those fics annoy me. I think either you write it novel style or script style, not both.

What do you mean by "thrown in there?" I've written some fanfics that are in script-ish style. Usually, I put some action remarks in parentheses within the dialogue (like 'addressing Taylor' or 'into the phone') but I've also put in small action sequences to move characters around the room or enter/exit locations. Is this what you're talking about or something else?

I find scripts incredibly hard to read, even when they're professional. Good think I'm not an actor. Scripts as "fiction" look really lazy and dull to me. Unless something is actually meant to be read aloud or performed, I think it really should be in prose.

I cannot stand script format. If I open a fic up nd its in that format I go right back out again. I don't care how amazing a story it is, that format always tells me "Hey, you are reading a story here" and I find it impossible to immerse myself in the world that was created.

So yeah. Script version is a big no for me.

Script format in a fanfiction based on a television show or movie does not bother me, possibly because I expect more dialogue and less exposition. If I were reading a fanfiction based on a book, then it would probably bother me as well.
The one format that does make me hit the back button ASAP is one big block of text, not a paragraph in sight and the dialogue of multiple characters throughout. I don't know if the author actually writes it that way or if it's a product of how the story is uploaded.