GrhmLz

Yeah, that's why I had an alternate theory that got shot down elsewhere. I was just presenting an alternative to the Good vs. Evil scenario, that many seem to favor, with my other speculation. It wasn't about being "right" or anything; I had just been speculating in another direction even though I still believe the good vs. evil set-up is very valid with the representations of Light vs. Dark.

(Jacob & Esau) What if they both represent the greater good?

Since Jacob/Esau is a biblical theme, I was speculating that another intepretation could be that Jacob and Esau are two different versions/representations of Old Testament and New Testament God (Two Faces of God). Old Testament God (Esau representation) being about Judgment/condemnation and New Testament God (Jacob representation) falling in line with the aspects of forgiveness/redemption. We could be viewing the inner conflict that divides the same Source of "goodness" (God) into two halves (OT/NT). The Jacob representation wants to rid the doubt from the other side of himself/itself (Esau) and stands firm in the position that mankind can in fact be redeemed. Mankind errs; however, is capable of learning from those mistakes so they can evolve to a higher place of righteousness. Esau bucks against this - this part of the same Source (God) remains doubtful/weary that man will ever be worthy of being in his (its) presence. "Killing Jacob" might merely translate into suppressing that side of "good" - by getting rid of forgiveness and redemption when it comes to dealing with mankind (Losties).

The inner struggle/battle of good can be dealing with "fallen mankind" (Losties) and playing itself out on the island in two forms (Jacob & Esau).

Therefore, if we think about it, "smokey" represents judgment. Typically, this judgement will eventually lead to death because the Esau representation views mankind as "corrupt/destructive." Man is a fallen being that automatically falls short from the glory/sight of God (due to the fall of Adam/Eve). Therefore, Esau would view our Losties (other characters) as "sinners" not worthy of being on the island or setting foot anywhere near it (similar to Adam/Eve being cast out of the Garden of Eden). We know our Losties have dark pasts. But to Esau - the law is the law and once it is broken - it doesn't matter anymore.

Now, Jacob, believes that our Losties can make progress before it's too late. In otherwords, they may have committed horrible acts; however, they still are open to receive forgiveness (if they seek it) and can have redemption (another chance to do what is right). I compared the scene with Young Kate to that of Jesus Christ. Young Kate was caught stealing. Now, both Jacob and Esau would acknowledge stealing as breaking "law"; however, Jacob stepped forward and paid for the item (like the crucifixtion of Christ paid for sinners) and the store owner made note by saying "as long as someone pays for it." Then, Jacob turns to Young Kate and tells her not to steal anymore (offering redemption/another chance). Esau wouldn't have offered the forgiveness/redemption for this same act of wrong.

Therefore, the difference between Jacob and Esau would lie in the outcome of "good" and not who necessarily represents "good." With Esau - once the Losties break the "law" it's too late. However, with Jacob, after the "law" is broken a Lostie would still be open to receive forgiveness and the following redemption. Obviously, Jacob's way is more preferable for the Losties.

Normally, Light vs. Dark is easily attributed to Good and Evil; however, perhaps in another context - the Light merely stands for redemption and the Dark stands for condemnation.

Just another idea I thought about.

Albion1919

I never really got the sense that they hate each other, at least it's not overt in the first scene where they were polite to each other. They're like frenemies.

findingmyselfLOST

Awesome post GrhmLz, ITA.. sorry i dunno ur name


i was wondering though if anyone else noticed in 3.20 "The Man Behind The Curtain"
when Ben took Locke to "Jacobs" cabin.. John hears someone say "Help me" it's in a sorta low creepy voice.. & everything starts to get weird & the rocking chair goes back and forth Ben grabs it & tells "Jacob" he's had his fun, & then Ben get thrown back & we see a glimpse of a man sitting in the rocking chair for like 0.5 seconds.. i paused it & it for sure doesnt look like Jacob nor Christian for that matter..
could this "Esau" man be residing in the cabin all this time time? That being the first time we see him as him? & the ash around the cabin.. does that have anything to do with anything?
i kinda have the feeling that it was Esau in the cabin & Jacob is only in the statue.. & as we all know as of 5.16 Ben had never seen jacob before & what in the cabin was all new to him too... hes just a liar

GrhmLz

Thanks. My name is Heather. Feel free to call me by it.


Yes, that's what it looks like to me.

I think the voice Locke heard in the cabin came from MIB (Esau), not Jacob. I think it's possible that Esau was somehow trapped inside the cabin, maybe by Jacob or his people, and that the dark ash was what kept him trapped inside of there. Perhaps when Ben and Locke went to the cabin - they disturbed the ash and set him free? After Ben shot Locke in the jungle and demanded to know what "Jacob" had said to him - an apparition in the form of "Walt" appears before Locke in the pit and tells him that he still has work to do. I think it's quite possible that the image was really Esau in disguise.

But here's another question. If Esau was inside the cabin all along and Jacob inside the statue, how did Ben know about the cabin to begin with? He had to have known it existed, prior to the visit, in order to bring Locke there and "fake" an encounter with Jacob?

Actually, since Ben is an "admitted liar" - he could have been lying about that too?!

Seriously, though, I've been wondering if perhaps Esau has made some kind of contact with Ben before the "cabin incident with Locke" and Esau was pretending to be Jacob for Ben's benefit? It could explain how Ben knew about the cabin's existence before coming there with Locke and maybe - Ben has been taking instructions from Esau and executing them out? What if he's been doing things that Jacob has never said to do at all and Ben just isn't saying? He's said he's never met/seen Jacob but maybe he thought he was "hearing" him? Probably why Jacob never actually showed himself to Ben.

eragon194

Here's a thought of mine. What if Jacob and Man #2 are both Smokey? Meaning they both were once a part of Smokey, one good, one bad. Then got separated and evolved into what they are now.

GrhmLz

^ Wow, that's a different speculation.

Do you think "Smokey" could have looked different then? I think the darkness - a black mist of smoke - would represent MIB (Esau) quite well. But, how would it represent Jacob in appearance too?

eragon194

Well, maybe the color of Smokey doesn't represent it's dual personalities. But if it did, then would Smokey be more of a white light rather than a smoke when it's Jacob?

We see a white light when the island's electromagnetism properties are disturbed/harnessed.

GrhmLz

^ lol, or maybe there's a constant battle/struggle for dominance - one side prevailing over the other? Maybe "Smokey" would appear light when Jacob has the control and it's black when MIB has control over the island? This could explain the eerie similarites between the Others way of existence to MIB's perspective about humans on the island because perhaps Jacob is not in control at the moment, even if he was co-habitating on the island at the same time?

The Others may want to serve Jacob; however, they could be under the belt of MIB - either knowingly or not.

findingmyselfLOST

The Man in Black probly did have some sort of contact with Ben before his whole leadership with The Others.. Horace was the one who we see building the cabin.. he's part of the DI.. so was Ben.. & could have gotten ahold of blueprints for the cabin.. or something XD.. i remember Ben saying to John "I use to have dreams" perhaps that is where Esau got into his mind as "Jacob"
of course.. TMIB obviously has been on the island Loooong before Dharma so i guess maybe when john was seeing horace build the cabin it wasnt real.. just another step to locke actually meeting "christian" who is Esau.. who tells him to move the island.. which sends the storyline into where it's at... it's all been one long journey for TMIB.. & it's all gone the way he wanted... & that's exactly right. Ben has been taking orders from TMIB all along thinking it's jacob.. & i remember jacob pretty much welcomed ppl to the island.. but esau hated it.. probably thought that only those who were worthy should be there.. like think bout Boones death.. John was told bout that plane in a dream... thinkin that was a sign.. but really just esau getting john to get boone killed because boone maybe wasnt worthy enough in esaus opinion..

Yes.. about the fact that maybe John n Ben set TMIB free from the cabin.. the ash.. was like someone stepped threw it when the 316 people went there.. altho im thinking Hugo coulda done that too in 4.01

I don't really know what to think. but it feels like the others havn't been following jacob for awhile..
which kinda sucks cuase if u were to go back watch some season 3-4 stuff the way people talked about him it's like they werent even talking bout him at all.. & i remmber Ben as Henry said jacob was some "magnificent leader.. but he's not a forgiving one" hmm.. Jacob seems to be forgiving to me.. Esau sounds more so like the hardass...


**Edit** hahah.. i was just in Jacobs thread and most of you are just saying pretty much the same thing as in here.. the fact that the Others have probaly been following Esau all this time & not Jacob... blah blah..
oh welll

GrhmLz

And remember back when young Ben first came to the island with his dad? He had that first encounter with Richard out in the jungle; however, shortly after that - he also "saw" an apparition that appeared to resemble his dead mother? Now, as far as we know, Ben's mother has never been on the island; however, I think it's very possible that Esau's energy has been taking the forms of people - in order to break down defenses of the people he tries to get to. Even Eko was seeing the image of his dead brother, Yemi. Jack has seen the images of Christian, his dead father etc.

Therefore, Esau could have definitely been using the form of Horace to get to Locke inside the dream - just like he had gotten to Ben. For Ben - I wonder if it started with the image of his mother appearing before him and then Esau took it a step further with the dreams, just like you suggested.

Very nicely analyzed and put together. I even like your demonstration with Boone. I think it's very likely that MIB has been manipulating alot of the chaos experienced between our Losties, between the Others, and between the Losties and Others. He's done so by taking advantage of their own weaknesses and flaws. If I were to take an obvious guess - I'd say MIB's goal is to dominate/control the island himself - free from Jacob's influence.

However - if our theory about MIB being trapped inside the cabin until he was set free is accurate, I'm trying to piece together how he was able to accomplish manipulating Ben/the Others this entire time? Hence, if he still had power to exert control/manipulation tactics over the inhabitants of the island, what was the point of him being held "prisoner" inside the cabin?

Yup, definitely either Ben/Locke or Hurley.

Yes - and another clue in S3 was when the African woman (forget her name, sorry) ordered Mikhail to shoot her when Kate, Sayid, and Locke had stumbled upon them and he actually did it. Mikhail shot and killed her. Later, after Locke throws Mikhail through the fence/gate, he thanks Locke for doing it. It's very weird behavior and I have a hard time swallowing that Jacob subscribes to these practices. It was like Mikhail and the African woman knew it was much better to die when they failed rather than face their "leader."

Oh well - their stories are connected at this point; therefore, the same topics are bound to be discussed in both threads. Not a big deal.

fetch

~Amarula~

OMGGG!

fetch

I know, right?

royalღcaliber

omg that's awesome

Demy

Theres a thread for the smoke monster?