Bronson

I had not seen a thread on the all powerful Elders or the Whitelighters who I guess are supposed to be guardian angels so I decided to create one. Sorry if there is one and I am not meaning to step on anyone's toes.

Personally, I had little use for the Elders who seemed to be useless. I mean whenever something happnened, Leo would come back and say, "The Elders don't know" or "The Elders are not sure" Which made one wonder what good were they?

I liked the Whitelighters though who seemed to be unlike the Elders useful and would actually fight.

GrhmLz

Yeah, if memory serves me correctly, Piper spat the same thing after Prue's death when she asked Leo why they couldn't save her.

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I guess that's why it's so easy to make the Elders out to be the villians in fanfic too. Because it gives them a purpose.

¨¨~ J Erlotiel L ~¨¨

I don't think there's a thread like this here on the board.But I'll check around to be sure

I wonder also how far their powers do stretch because isn't it the Elders who decide when whitelighter are allowed to heal before someone is dead?Leo's said that a lot of times that the Elders wouldn't let him heal someone.

Keep posting

GrhmLz

Yeah, Jackie, I think the Elders have some control over it. But not all. I think that's what Leo meant when he told Piper that the Elders didn't have that kind of power to save Prue. Because there's an even higher power. Which of course connects into the Angels of Death/Destiny and the Elders don't have control over all that.

¨¨~ J Erlotiel L ~¨¨

Okay, but what kind of power is that then?
I mean there must be some kind of balance too. Sometimes we have seen Leo heal almost dead people...like Cole in S4.He saved him 2 times on the brink of death.Who controled that? I mean Cole was a demon a 2 times being saved also.How decided that b/c it couldn't have been the Elders

GrhmLz

The show seems to incorporate some mixed elements that derive from Christian, Judiasm and Wiccan belief:


- There's the Hierarchy concept: After rewatching the season 3 episode, The Honeymoon's Over , the other day, I do recall Leo explaining to Piper that there is a heirarchy and that his bosses' (the Elders) have bosses and so on (compare/similar to the idea of a Christian heirarchy belief of God/Archangels/Angels/Mankind)

- There's the free-will concept that allows the sisters/others to make choices whether good or bad. And that allows them to learn from their mistakes and grow. We know that the higher powers don't control/interfere with that. (Free-will concept that can derive from the story of Adam/Eve in Judeo-Christianity when they ate from the apple integrating the knowledge of both good/evil.)

- There's the Angel concept (working with/for a higher power): You have the Angels of Destiny and Death. The Angel of Destiny would know which destinies/paths have been layed out for people and when it would be someone's time to die. The Angel of Death would show up only at that time.

- As for the higher power? My guess is that it might link back to the God-concept of a grand divine power that is omnipresent (everywhere and in everything)? This divine power or Creator would be what oversees everything from the Angels, to the Elders, etc. This divine God-force would know and see all before it even happens.

So when Cole didn't die more than once, it could be that it wasn't his time to die and that's why the healing power was allowed to work. Part of him derives from humanity so the free-will concept could still apply to him. He had a soul which we know ended up in a limbo state (season 7). Because of all the pain and suffering he caused to others by giving in to his demon self. Limbo is comparable to a purgatory state in Christian Catholicism, where souls go to repent for the sins/wrongs after death because they committed them as imperfect human beings. Then they move onto "heaven."

Like when Leo healed Piper without the Elders knowledge in Awakened (season 2)? The Elders can't be the creator of the healing power, I think they have the job of overseeing it. A god-like force would be the creator which would help explain why the healing power can work at different times without the Elders having any say in it. Leo was allowed to heal Piper because of a) freewill and b) because a God-power allowed it to be b/c it wasn't Piper's time to die yet.

Sorry, that probably got pretty deep and philosophical but it's the best way I could explain where I think it could be coming from.

¨¨~ J Erlotiel L ~¨¨

Thanks for that Heather
I understand must of what you're saying but that doesn't really explain ehy Prue had to die or why Leo sometimes doesn't get to heal. I think I'm just confusing everything even more now but if there is free-will involved in like everything why can the sisters be allowed to save everyone by rewinding time or such things?
What are the Elders real job or authority over humans or witches?

Btw, I have added the thread to the board guide

GrhmLz

Okay.
Here's how I'll try to explain it because this is how I understand it:

I believe that free-will and what is meant to be are all mixed up together. It's what makes up the grand-design. This god-like power is the only one that knows Everything/has the final say. Not the Elders and not the Angels of Death or Destiny which are all interwined with healing/death. They operate in accordance with this higher power.

Remember free-will allows the sisters to make their own choices but at the same time if this god-power knows/creates all, doesn't it make sense that sometimes free-will leads to what is meant to be? Sometimes free-will leads to the wrong choices but that's what Consequences are. The powers that be will not interfere with free-will. Free-will can't control life or death itself, it controls decisions we make that may or may not lead to either life or death.

Now, your examples:

- Prue dying? It was her time to go. Prue made a free-will decision to step in front of the innocent (Dr. Griffis). Which led to her injuries, which in turn led to her death. So this is an example of free-will/and what is meant to be ... combining together. A higher power/god-like power decided/knew it was her time to return to the afterlife. At the same time, Prue used her free-will to make it happen. Piper/Phoebe tried everything to bring her back (example of exercising free-will), like they stated in the beginning of Charmed Again, but the magic didn't work (because it wasn't meant to). Instead, it brought Paige to them.

- Leo not being able to heal Prue/others? Leo used his free-will by making the choice to try and heal Prue/others without anyone stopping him. That doesn't mean he gets to control the results. He's not the god-like power responsible for the grand-design. When his power works, it's because it's allowed to work. When his power isn't allowed to work, it's because someone isn't meant to be healed.

- The sisters saving everyone through magic/rewinding time etc? This god-like power is allowing these events to unfold/transpire. Along the way, they get to save whoever is meant to live but others may die because it is their time to go:

Example one: Like the Inspector that Prue wanted to save from Death Takes A Halliwell? He was meant to die no matter what Prue did. Prue kept using her free-will to try and save him but her free-will was not responsible for controlling the outcome. The Angel of Death was trying to explain that lesson to her. It could have led to an untimely death for Prue had she not listened. But get it? At the same time, she didn't die because it wasn't her time. Her freewill choice intertwined with what was meant to be. This god-power already knew she was going to make the right choice before she did it.

Example two: Phoebe used free-will to try and save that guy she was seeing, I believe from A Witch in Time? If not, it's another episode. Remember things kept going wrong when she tried to interfere with his time to die? She's using free-will choices to try and control something that isn't meant to be. In the end, she had to let it happen b/c it was creating consequences for others that weren't suppose to have them.

The Elders duty essentially looks to me like they are the ones given the authority to oversee whitelighters and who they're assigned to. The powers they give to the witches are created by the god-power. It's like a chain of command. EVen though whitelighters/witches answer to Elders, the Elders still answer/obey that higher power. The Elders don't oversee the whole grand-design just the operation of whitelighters/their charges. The Elders don't get to say who lives or dies.

Okay, that was way long!

¨¨~ J Erlotiel L ~¨¨

Wow, Heather
You did make some things more clear for me at least.Thanks hun

Bronson

Yes Thanks Heather for that analysis. It was great.

GrhmLz

You're welcome. I was trying hard not to make it sound too complex. But I do love when the Elders get portrayed as "mini-villians" in some fanfictions because at times it looks like they try to control what they shouldn't be! (like Gideon).

¨¨~ J Erlotiel L ~¨¨

Yeah, Gideon is a prefect example of an Elder that thought he was doing the greater good but ended up becoming evil instead.
That kind of shows that Elders are or have been human to and make misstakes.

Primal Slayer

I was kind of disappointed when we finally got to meet the Elders face to face. They seemed to become really weak in S5. I liked the idea of an Elder falling out of grace basically but it could've been approached stronger.

wickedrum

puh yeah. All those silly rules they had at the beginning, they all got broken and it was thus proven how senseless those rules were anyway.

BlondieLeigh

They were pretty pointless rules