[VanillaBean]

OK, guys, I hope this isn't raining on the parade. If someone went into the Luke/Grace thread and said, "I don't get it, they don't make sense to me," I'd shoot em...no, first I'd try to explain (in 5,500 words or less), then I'd shoot 'em.

I've always gotten the impression the Adam and Grace have known each other for ages, were the closest thing to best friends either one had, but never really took one another into their confidence. I know there's a lot of controversy over the fact that Grace seemed to not know why Adam hated November. A lot of people think the writers hadn't determined that Grace and Adam had been friends since they were three, but I could sort of buy that it didn't occur to Grace that November was the month his mother died. If you've read my fanfic, I'm repeating myself, and I'm sorry for that, but I've always felt like Grace and Adam have each had their own pain to deal with, that they haven't really been able to share it with each other.

I actually think Joan has been sort of a glue for them. I think they're both drawn to her, because she's so open, and so their connection is stronger than it has been before they met Joan. That's not to say they weren't friends, or aren't friends without her. I guess the best way to put it is, before they were both loners who hung out together when it was convenient, but now they both connect to Joan, and thus connect to each other more.

I don't know how that view will go over, since the consensus seems to be that Adam and Grace have a bond seperate than Joan. I agree they have a bond, but it seemed to be a very loose bond. We've seen both Adam and Grace open up to Joan about things they don't open up about to others. For Adam, it was his mom's letter. For Grace...well, for Grace, it's just being able to abide people a little more. I'm actually appreciating The Fire and the Wood more and more because, besides God bringing Adam and Grace into Joan's home so Kevin would find a car and Roy Roebuck would give the arson information to Will, it brought the Girardi's into Grace and Adam's life, which they both desperately need. It's evident that Adam looks to Helen as a mother figure, and that she is important to him. As for Grace, I'm convinced that if she knew Luke only through school, and wasn't friends with Joan and didn't know their family, she'd never get involved with him.

Am I off my rocker? Sorry for hijacking this thread, and turning into the Adam/Grace/Girardi's thread, and kick me out the door if this isn't the place for this. I've just been thinking about this for a while.

[shrams]

I guess the best way to put it is, before they were both loners who hung out together when it was convenient, but now they both connect to Joan, and thus connect to each other more.

I like this view, Vanilla Bean. Neither Grace nor Adam seem like the type to talk much about what's bothering them. It's easy for me to see them as recognizing that they can pretty much accept each other as they are, as long as they don't get *too* close. Yet it did sound like Grace missed Adam in "Anonymous".

They both like to walk alone and think; maybe they occasionally used to walk together, and think, each in their own head, but knowing someone else was nearby who wouldn't ask stupid questions. Does that make sense? Grace seems very accustomed to giving Adam advice (about not moping about Joan, or forgiving her, in a couple of episodes) and he seems accustomed to letting her advice slide off his back. I'm not sure he would ever give her advice, unless she specifically asked, and even then, he might give the sort of evasive non-answer that will get him in the least amount of trouble. "Dunno, haven't really thought about it." That should cover most situations.

[Elizajoey]

I agree shrams.

They seemed to have a relationship of convenience. Someone to sit with and someone to swap unimportant comments about anything and everything. I think they were friends because they were just there. There were no consequences of their relationship, they didn't have to 'report' to anyone. I guess in a sense, they just floated along together.

[*Alien Pixie*]

This is completely unrelated, but at the same time related.

I just wanted to ask if anyone is interested in adopting the Fanlisting(from tfl.org) I own for Adam and Grace It Could Be I don't have the time for it anymore really, well not to do as good of a job on it as I wish I could. So if anyone is intersted just email me at zia@sewerwalking.com

-Zia

[Tennessee Whiskey]

Zia I had no clue they even had a fanlisting. Great idea because Grace/Adam rock dude! ...I'd love to adopt if from you but my html is still in the rusty stages. I hope someone could keep it going though. *runs off to join*

[*Alien Pixie*]

I've had it open for some time, but just never plugged it, shame on me. If no one wants to adopt it, it is one I will just keep... it would be sad to see it close *sniffle* it's my baby! and yeah! they do rock! lol

-Zia

[Tennessee Whiskey]

Glad to here you'll still keep it going and plug it baby I'm sure there just isn't a couple of us A/G fans out there

*hopes that we will get a Grace/Adam scene soon*

[AutumnColorsღ]

I miss those two together. It seems they dont have any scenes alone together to talk about things. Hopefully she can talk to him about Luke and vice versa about Joan ( even though Im sure they have talked about Joan before)

[shrams]

I'd like to have more info on Adam and Grace's friendship, pre-Joan. Does he know about her mother's drinking? Is Adam allowed to come over to Grace's house? Did she used to hang out at Adam's house a lot to get away from her mother, and did she see Elizabeth as a surrogate mom? What, if anything, did they have in common as far as interests? Maybe now that both Chris and Becky are regular cast members, we can see some scenes of just the two of them.

[LPwings]

Adam and Grace's friendship seem's to have alway's been kinda just "there". Maybe their parents were friends and that's how they became friend's. I do know that once you find your first REAL relationship with the opposite sex, that some of your friendship's take a back seat to it. That's not to say their not friend's, it's just that they have people in their lives now that they can be open with about EVERYTHING. Adam to Joan about his mom, and Grace to Luke about her mom.

[Tennessee Whiskey]

Originally posted by LPwings Adam and Grace's friendship seem's to have alway's been kinda just "there". Maybe their parents were friends and that's how they became friend's. I do know that once you find your first REAL relationship with the opposite sex, that some of your friendship's take a back seat to it. That's not to say their not friend's, it's just that they have people in their lives now that they can be open with about EVERYTHING. Adam to Joan about his mom, and Grace to Luke about her mom.

I totally agree with that. I think you hit the nail on the head ...at least in my opinion

I want more backstory on these two!

[shrams]

Well, some of my questions were answered in this ep! Apparently Adam doesn't have "almost family" status with Grace's family, because he hasn't been allowed over in a long time. It sounded like he didn't know about Grace's mom's drinking, so I guess she hasn't confided in him about that.

I did like the exchange about the dress. Poor Adam; there are things she will never let him live down, and she can say pretty much whatever she wants to him, but he's kind of got to walk on eggs with her. I can see why she's built up all these defenses around herself, but it's a shame she hasn't felt like she could trust anyone, really, until Luke finally got past those defenses.

I'd still like to see Adam and Grace develop their friendship on a different level now that they might have a bit more in common. It's not like either of them is comfortable in adding new people to their little circle of friends, so maybe it'll be easier now for them to lean on each other just a bit more than they have in the past.

[Tennessee Whiskey]

Yes questions were answered in this eppy and I didn't like the answeres. I really wanted Adam to have more insight to Grace's home life. At least him knowing about her mother...maybe even a "well she use to but I didn't know she still drank" or something like that but no. *sigh* Or even a scene of Adam just saying hi to her parents. I guess there goes my hopes in Adam/Grace having a Xander/Willow kinda childhood friendship. Who know's maybe we'll get more in a different eppy

[falling is like this]

Originally posted by shrams It sounded like he didn't know about Grace's mom's drinking, so I guess she hasn't confided in him about that.

See, I thought it sounded like he DID know. His comment "I'm actually surprised she let you meet her" kind of made it sound like he knew there was a big reason Grace wouldn't want Joan to meet her mom.

I'm totally dying for Grace/Adam back story here, I have been for such a long time and tonight would have been such a good episode for them to go into more detail with it.

I mean it's obvious that Grace has pushed him away at least to a certain extent. There are lots of theories floating around in the JoA fan net-world the one I like to believe (until the show tells me different) is that they had a good-solid-best-friend-status childhood friendship until Adam's mom died, when Adam started to pull away from everyone, it's already mentioned that he was different before his mom died and that he had other friends besides Grace (like Steve Ramsey), and it seems like Grace was the only one of his friends that stuck with him through that change in personality, so there's obviously some connection there, but the actual friendship had been diminished until the Girardi's came along, since Joan pulled Adam out of his funk to a certain extent and gave Grace some much needed friendship, which in turn brought Adam & Grace closer again.

Tonight's episode and Anonymous would have been great episodes to deal with the subject, I don't understand why they had the show focus on Grace's poem and then never even kind of explain it. Blah.

I'd even settle for more tiny interactions, like the one in "Out of Sight" at Judith's party, just little things like that that show they're still friends.

Enough of my ramble, I'm just completely intrigued by the possiblities here. To clarify, not as in romance I love the pairings just the way they are, just of the history of their friendship. (I just have this thing for long-term male/female friendships on TV shows, I don't know why.) Here's to hoping Barbara Hall writes us something good ... and soon

[VanillaBean]

See, I thought it sounded like he DID know. His comment "I'm actually surprised she let you meet her" kind of made it sound like he knew there was a big reason Grace wouldn't want Joan to meet her mom.

I got the same feeling. When Joan came in and started talking about Grace's mom, Adam got this total look of, "whoa" on his face.

I think Grace started to pull away from Adam the same time that Becky Coogan happened. To me, that was probably a turning point in their relationship. Actually, now that I think about it, I think Adam was no longer allowed to Grace's house, but Grace spent more and more time at Adam's....but the subject of Grace's mom was taboo. I wonder if Elizabeth sort of caught onto what was happening in Grace's home life and said something to Adam sometime before she died. It seems evident that he knew, but the question of how he found out remains to be seen.

I also wonder how much of a serrogate mom Elizabeth was to Grace; she obviously had a lot of emotional baggage herself, so I wonder how capable she would've been to extend love and support to another child. I like the idea, I just don't know if I think it's feasible.