Cristofle

The fact that *I* was pretty appalled by Arya speaks to me personally, lol. I don't blame Arya for not trusting Sansa yet, even. Arya remembers two things about Sansa: Sansa wanted to be Joffrey's Queen, and Sansa was always awful to Jon. She doesn't know that Sansa has acknowledged that and apologized for it, and that Jon has forgiven her (and I don't think Sansa necessarily needs to explain herself there, to be clear- she and Jon have their own relationship that Arya is not necessarily entitled to, as much as that might surprised Arya now). She sees the sister she remembers as always believing herself better than Jon (and Arya), and she doesn't trust that she'll keep Jon's best interests at heart. I understand that. I also understand how that letter made her look bad, and even how it might have enraged Arya. I don't accept that it made her instantly fly into "Welp, gotta calmly threaten to cut Sansa's face off, I guess".

CityGal

Thanks for the discussion.

scorpio_chick

What may happen once the WWs arrive has little to nothing to do with how that Jon/Danny scene played out. Jon conceded the North when he didn't have to. He willingly gave up control of the home that they just recently won back, the home Sansa had to convince him to fight for. And now he's decided, all on his own, that Dany gets to rule the North. Regardless, of what happens from here, that makes him look bad...yes, worse than Robb in my eyes.

This argument no longer holds up given that Jon wasn't gaining anything by conceding to Dany. She already agreed to join the fight. I think the writers chose the worst possible way to resolve the whole "bend the knee" nonsense. Now, it just looks like the whole point of it was merely to advance a romantic subplot.

It's a valid comparison to me in the sense that their actions really make no sense, lol. Arya may look worse but in both instances, character integrity was apparently deemed expendable.

wickedrum

Cristofle

I don't think that was the best time for them to have Jon kneel. I absolutely think he'd already decided to, and wasn't going to change his mind because she offered her help anyway, but I still think it would have been better placed in the next episode, BECAUSE she wasn't asking that he pledge the North.

But I also don't think Robb and Jon can be compared, because they weren't facing the same obstacles. We have no way of knowing what Robb would do in Jon's shoes. Also, Robb didn't give the North away to anyone- but he got at least half his men slaughtered and lost Winterfell in the first place through his choices. Now, if Cersei successfully manages to attack them in the face of this, it might get some people killed, lol, but I'm skeptical of that for the very reasons Jaime said in the first episode- no army, least of all a mercenary army, is going to face down the Dothraki, the dragons, and the WW with their own zombie dragon. Money's not that useful if you're dead.

wickedrum

Best line:

scorpio_chick

They will inevitably be compared as Northerners and members of House Stark who held the title of KITN. The writers are obviously inviting parallels, both good and bad.

We don't yet know what the fallout will look like from the Jon/Cersei meeing but hard to believe it isn't leading somewhere, somewhere that is probably not good for the Starks, ultimately.

Cristofle

I actually get the impression that this one final time, the one it will damn the most is Cersei. When Jaime even turns his back on her, I think that's the writers' indication that she's well and truly lost.

(yes, she should have been lost like 800 years ago, but that's what the writers are selling, lol)

I think the writers consider Tormund much more of a truth teller than the Northern Lords, so I don't think their intention is that Jon is doing something horrible by pledging to Dany. Of course, viewers may disagree with that, lol, which I understand, but if we are going to use the Robb example, when he wanted to kill Lord Karstark, NO ONE was telling him it was a good idea. Namely, Talisa and Catelyn were against it, which signified it was going to have disastrous consequences. In this case, some of the biggest biggest "truth tellers" around Jon now- Tyrion and Tormund- are telling him to do it, so I'm not sure the writers intend for this aspect to end in disaster for Jon. D&D don't actually care about Lord Glover's opinion- that was put there so Arya would believe Sansa doesn't have Jon's back.

LadyKatherine

Sensa was a little girl, and most little girls wanted to marry Joffrey and become queen. Santa has changed since then, as did Arya. Arya is still stuck in the past. Sansa handle the situation beautifully.

scorpio_chick

Remember the argument between Jon and Sansa in 7x01? The one where Sansa not only tells Jon that he has to be smarter than Robb and Ned and that he should may be listen to her but which ends with them discussing the threat of Cersei? Jon was very much underestimating Cersei, while Sansa pointed out that going against Cersei is dangerous because she won't stop until her enemy is destroyed. It was a scene that mirrored the ones we saw last season where Sansa warned Jon about underestimating Ramsay. She is very much a truth teller here too, which actually lends more credibility to the idea that Jon and House Stark will pay, in some way, for crossing Cersei.

And I know Tormund is supposed to be seen as a truth teller but the whole "Jon is being lead by his pride" angle rings incredibly false because...well, that's not Jon. It just highlights how bad and nonsensical the "bend the knee" subplot really is.

Cristofle

Well, I think that comes to fruition in 7x07- Cersei doesn't believe them even when they bring the wights to her. Jon and Sansa tend to be both right and both wrong when they get together, though. They were both wrong in that scene- Jon was wrong that Cersei can be handled, and Sansa was wrong that the wall will hold.

I don't know that D&D were tying that scene to Dany and Jon kneeling to her, though. And while I believe Cersei is particularly enraged by Jon pledging to Dany publicly, I think even if he hadn't, Cersei would still do what she does in the finale. Jon was never going to kneel to Cersei, certainly, and Jon and Dany would still both be going North to deal with the NK, and Cersei must be thinking now that it was never Margaery in the prophecy (that someone younger and more beautiful will cast her down)- that it's Dany.

And at the end of the day, this is where I guess I differ from the writers, because I can't blame Jon for trying, or Tyrion for trying. No, Cersei can't be reached, but this was their best shot at trying to convince her she has bigger enemies, and I can understand why they thought it was worth an attempt to convince her to at least focus primarily on the NK and not who is going to take over who right now. I also don't think they can afford to focus on Cersei- I think the NK is unquestionably the bigger threat. Cersei is a threat- the NK is a bigger one. They may lose people by not focusing on Cersei, but they'd lose more if they didn't focus on the NK.

scorpio_chick

I think the larger point though, is that Jon is so concerned about the WWs that he is underestimating other threats, namely Cersei and I don't think that will play out merely in Cersei not buying into the bigger threat. There is little motivation in having Jon pledge loyalty to Dany in front of Cersei if it weren't going to have some impact down the line. Now we can talk about how unreasonable Cersei is and the benefits of siding with Dany but bottom line is that Jon's actions will have consequences. That whole Jon/Sansa scene was way too ominous to think there won't be some blowback from all these decisions Jon has made since leaving Winterfell.

Cristofle

What can he do about Cersei, though? Fight her? Lose men in the process, men he can't afford to lose if he hopes to save even a small fraction of the North? There are no good options where Cersei is concerned. The best of the bad ones was to try to convince her to focus on the Night King, or stop openly fighting in order to direct more resources to the Night King. It's a lost cause, because Cersei is deranged, but I can understand believing it was worth a shot.

Ultimately, for Cersei I think the most likely option is that Jaime will kill her and fulfill the final part of her prophecy, before she can get all of them killed. How much damage she does in the meantime is an open question.

scorpio_chick

Well I think how I ultimately feel about it will depend on how the Jon/Cersei meeting unfolds. Is it really necessary for him to tell Cersei in that moment that he has chosen to bend the knee to Dany? I mean, to me that seems like an obvious setup for Cersei to turn her attention to Jon. Again, we don't know exactly what will come of that, but I'm almost certain Cersei ain't done yet.

hurricane eyes

100000% this. When Dany first said Jon wouldn't bend the knee because of pride I gave it a pass since she doesn't know him, but for Tormund to try to draw parallel between Mance Rayder and Jon is a huge freaking reach. I feel like it's just the writers not knowing how to talk Jon into bending to Dany that isn't about his feels for her.

Honestly they the thing I hate most is Jon not even talking over his decision with Sansa. She's the one in charge while he's away and he just got done saying they needed to work together and trust each other more and then he goes and makes a huge decision without even talking it over with her (and the rest of the Starks). This is why that idiot should not be in charge of the entire North. No strategy whatsoever.